Induction Lighting For Parking Lots

[tom baker]

In my honest opinion Induction and LED fixtures do nothing but hurt the electrical trade.

Where I work we are being asked to do more with less staff its the same at other colleges, universitys, military bases. The cost may be more but when I can install a induction wall pack for $300 thats good for 100,000 hours thats the best solution. Another way to think of it is one luminare installation for your career. If what you state was true we would still be installing incandescent lamps with a life of 1000 hours.

 

[ElectDesigner]

The topic of induction lighting is very interesting. Though I was aware of the technology I was not too clued up with the specifications. So when a client asked me for lighting that would last them 100,000 hrs - i was like hmmm let me get back to you. A few weeks later a induction company gave a presentation at our office - and it seem very promising (but hey sales guys can try to convince you that the sky is orange), even still I don't know of any project where our office has specified induction lighting. The only thing I could take away from that presentation is that because of the unique way it is constructed it really makes it hard to package the lighting fixture for certain applications, so it would require more space/packaging than an equivalent LED fixture.

To me it seems that its more of a confidence issue - the thinking is that very few people are using it so it must be bad. Another reason is that it is not endorsed my the major manufacturers, even the ones that are endorsed received very little media attention. And for the most part it has been overshadowed by LED fixture. I guess there is also associated misconceptions with each fixture, client sees LED thinks - energy efficient, much "cooler" and way of the future, client sees induction and thinks - old fluorescent-like lighting technology. Keep in mind these are just my thoughts, maybe the profit/fixture is greater for LED's for manufacturers - who knows. What ever the reason may be, it seems as though induction lighting has got a lot of work to do to gain greater acceptance.

 

[BullsnPyrs]

Where I work we are being asked to do more with less staff its the same at other colleges, universitys, military bases. The cost may be more but when I can install a induction wall pack for $300 thats good for 100,000 hours thats the best solution. Another way to think of it is one luminare installation for your career. If what you state was true we would still be installing incandescent lamps with a life of 1000 hours.

We have specified induction fixtures at some community colleges in Ky. Our experience is that the 300$ wallpack isn't very well constructed and has no user servicable parts. If a driver or a lamp failed we had to replace the whole fixture. Once everything was up and running the results were great and the energy savings we anticipated were delivered. There are manufacturers that do offer fixtures with replaceable components and with better reliability but they are not the 300$ wallpack, those are the 450$ TO 500$ wallpack. That changes the payback and makes LED a better alternative.

 

[jpozak]

Induction Post

Induction Post

I received this post via Google news alerts on Induction lighting and thought I best chime in.

Induction is becoming more and more prevalent and a viable alternative to high cost LED's.


Sparky is right. LED is very unproven, changes with every manufacture and chip set, does not throw light at distance and costs twice as much as a quality induction fixture.

Induction is positioned to become a valuable alternative in parking garages, pole top lights and highbay lighting because of the costs and long life.

The other side of the coin is don't buy crap that does not have testing and verified results. like LED there are Chinese manufactures that cut corners and ship low quality products. Our job as a manufacture it to wed out the risky products and deliver and support quality retrofit kits and fixtures.

Please PM me if you have any induction questions.

Joe

 

[zxas6699]

I summarized some advantages of induction lamps compared with conventional LED lamps as your requirements.

Induction lamps have a lifespan of 80,000 to 100,000 hours (depending on type and model), which is essentially almost the same as LED lamp lifespan. However, the lumen degradation will be around 14% for LED lamp after 1200 hours use because of the problem of heat dissipation. The lumen degradation of induction lamp is only 16% after 20000 hours use. Another thing is about luminous efficiency. For LED, the system luminous efficiency is around 65LM/W, while for induction lamp, it is over 75LM/W, especially for 400W induction lamp, it will be 80LM/W. The major difference between the technologies is in conversion efficiency (energy utilization) and costs.

Most presently available commercial LED lighting fixtures have conversion efficiencies in the 35 to 55 Lumens/Watt (L/W) range. LED elements with a conversion efficiency of 70 L/W are available, but still quite expensive. There are reports of LEDs with conversion efficiencies of up to 100 L/W operating in research labs, but they are not yet commercially available.

Induction lamps have a conversion efficiency ranging from 65 L/W in low wattage (8 ~ 20 W internal inductor types) to 85 L/W in the high wattage (250 ~ 400 W external inductor models) range. Ongoing research will see some small improvements in these numbers. When considering commercial/industrial lighting and using a 200 W fixture as an example, the induction lamp version will produce 17,000 Lumens while an LED version would only produce 11,000 Lumens (about 35% less light) with the same energy input.

Additionally, the higher operating frequency of induction lamp makes the light stable and no flickering.
Above are just a few obvious advantages of induction lamps compared with LED ones. If you want to know more about indution lamps, I will be very glad to help.

 

[Electric-Light]

Induction lamps have a conversion efficiency ranging from 65 L/W in low wattage (8 ~ 20 W internal inductor types) to 85 L/W in the high wattage (250 ~ 400 W external inductor models) range. .

Which is easily matched by HIDs. The newer breed of compact arc tube ceramic MH HIDs offer very promising specs with efficacy in 80s and 90s with 80% lumen maintenance over useful life.

Induction lamps are exactly the same as CFLs except that mercury atmosphere is excited by induction.

So, they behave as if CFLs continued to live past their electrode life. The UV intensity on the phosphor is very high, just like inside VHO lamps and CFLs Over the rated life, induction loses like 50-60% through phosphor decay. They need to be oversized to ensure proper light level throughout the entire useful life.

Inductions have a longer life, but if the cut off point was 80% of original output, their life would be comparable to CFLs.

 

[solis]

Our experience is the light quality is poor and makes it look foggy most of the time. We replaced 400W lamps in a parking lot with 200W induction and the customer, even though they spec'd and bought the fixtures, wasn't very happy.

 

[Electric-Light]

Our experience is the light quality is poor and makes it look foggy most of the time. We replaced 400W lamps in a parking lot with 200W induction and the customer, even though they spec'd and bought the fixtures, wasn't very happy.

I don't know what the original 400W was(HPS, probe MH or pulse MH), but if they thought 200W big CFL (aka induction) would replace 400W HPS, it is not going to happen.

 

[the blur]

is there an induction wall pack, that can replace a 250w HPS wall pack? with the same amount of light on the ground ? these wall packs are mounted 20 feet up.

 

[mivey]

The 100W to 120W are supposed to be equivalent:

http://www.agtus.org/files/AGT_MB01.pdf

 

[tom baker]

Look at the lumens, not the watts.
Ask your supply house to do a lighting layout comparing each type of luminare.

We replaced exterior HIDs with induction and the lumens are OK. But I don't know the specifics, except at night it looks great.

In deference to a post on LEDs they are proven and getting better every day. The city of LA is replacing 140,000 HPS with LED and the end result is great.

But you must think lumens not watts.

I replaced some 250 HPS with induction 5 years ago and it was a great improvement but it was done for security.

 

[jpozak]

Induction Post and parking lot lights

Induction Post and parking lot lights

I have read in this thread that induction is dead and LED is the wave of the future.

I have to strongly disagree. LED is twice the price for half of the performance. LED is terrible at throwing light at distance and is VERY directional.
If you have not guessed by now we are a full time Induction lighting company. induction is finally proving it's self as a proven alternative to HID and great at brute-force lighting. BOMA and other lighting professionals now have an alternative to expensive LED's.

YES lumens need to be watched as @70,000 hrs most induction has only a 20% reduction from initial lumens where as LED is 50% @ 50,000 hrs.

Induction is the answer to "What else do you have?" when you tell your customers the price of their $500 LED wall pack or $1,200 streetlight!

Joe Pozak, Owner
Innovative Induction Lighting, LLC

 

[tom baker]

I have read in this thread that induction is dead and LED is the wave of the future.

I have to strongly disagree. LED is twice the price for half of the performance. LED is terrible at throwing light at distance and is VERY directional.
If you have not guessed by now we are a full time Induction lighting company. induction is finally proving it's self as a proven alternative to HID and great at brute-force lighting. BOMA and other lighting professionals now have an alternative to expensive LED's.

YES lumens need to be watched as @70,000 hrs most induction has only a 20% reduction from initial lumens where as LED is 50% @ 50,000 hrs.

Induction is the answer to "What else do you have?" when you tell your customers the price of their $500 LED wall pack or $1,200 streetlight!

Your LED prices are way high. Streetlights are less than $500. I attend the IES Street and Area Lighting Conferences and its all about LED. There are a few induction mfgs at the show, but all the interest is LED. One big advantage of LED is thats its easily dimmed and I am starting to see a lot of applications for dimming LEDs, parking garages, street lighting.
One of the challanges with induction is the large lamp size giving poor control or what we call a blob of light.

I just look at all the large LED projects going on, nothing like that for induction. City of Seattle is doing 10,000 LED and City of LA is doing 140,000 LEDs

 

[Electric-Light]

Your LED prices are way high. Streetlights are less than $500. I attend the IES Street and Area Lighting Conferences and its all about LED. There are a few induction mfgs at the show, but all the interest is LED. One big advantage of LED is thats its easily dimmed and I am starting to see a lot of applications for dimming LEDs, parking garages, street lighting.
One of the challanges with induction is the large lamp size giving poor control or what we call a blob of light.

I just look at all the large LED projects going on, nothing like that for induction. City of Seattle is doing 10,000 LED and City of LA is doing 140,000 LEDs

The other day, some hippie woman was commenting about LED retrofit to after hours Seattle City Light crew and wages. Apparently they make double hour on holidays.

If you venture south, you'll find the campus of Clark College in the 'Couve is full of induction in walk ways.

 

[weressl]

Your LED prices are way high. Streetlights are less than $500. I attend the IES Street and Area Lighting Conferences and its all about LED. There are a few induction mfgs at the show, but all the interest is LED. One big advantage of LED is thats its easily dimmed and I am starting to see a lot of applications for dimming LEDs, parking garages, street lighting.
One of the challanges with induction is the large lamp size giving poor control or what we call a blob of light.

I just look at all the large LED projects going on, nothing like that for induction. City of Seattle is doing 10,000 LED and City of LA is doing 140,000 LEDs

IMNSHO it is the Edison/Westinghouse replay all over again. It does not matter which product is the better, but how is it marketed.

The dirty little secret is that the rare earth metals that are necessary for LED's are controlled by the Chinese as something like over 80% of the known reserves are in China.

To be accurate most current LEDs will loose 30% light output @ 70% life expectency, so definetly greater loss than induction, but not nearly as drastic as stated by someone earlier.

In all aspects induction wins out over LED, so you have to ask why is it that it is being deployed in wastly greater numbers? One of course is that induction is not available in your tabletop lamp, so a lot of volume gain is lost there. But the answer is: follow the money. Whenever municipal projects involved you can be sure it is politics/money.

 

[Electric-Light]

Induction is worse than LEDs when it comes to lumen maintenance. It is an electrodeless CFL.

So, the phosphors are heavily loaded (high watts per phosphor surface area) just like CFLs VHO fluorescent lamps. They decay quicker than linear lamps which are larger, but have lower phosphor loading.

They decay similarly to CFLs. They just continue decaying past the point which CFLs stop working due to electrode failure. From Sylvania datasheet I've read, I think its 40-50% EOL which is comparable to standard MH.

 

[TNBaer]

Induction is worse than LEDs when it comes to lumen maintenance. It is an electrodeless CFL.

So, the phosphors are heavily loaded (high watts per phosphor surface area) just like CFLs VHO fluorescent lamps. They decay quicker than linear lamps which are larger, but have lower phosphor loading.

They decay similarly to CFLs. They just continue decaying past the point which CFLs stop working due to electrode failure. From Sylvania datasheet I've read, I think its 40-50% EOL which is comparable to standard MH.

You're right. It's drastic enough that you need to account for it. It's weird, when I started in this business in 2005 I didn't proposed project based on Mean Lumens. Lumen maintenance was so good with PS/MH and T8 there really wasn't much need to. Now we're talking about Lumen Maintenance being a huge factor in the these we do. To me, that's going backwards.

I'm firmly entrenched on the LED bandwagon when it comes to replacing low wattage HID, but the lumen maintenance issue is simply too big to ignore. I'm still a skeptic with most LED and almost all induction (which seems to not be dropping in price as swiftly as LED). Metal Halide has dimming options and a great track record, so when it comes to pole lighting that's my go-to solution.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

You're right. It's drastic enough that you need to account for it. It's weird, when I started in this business in 2005 I didn't proposed project based on Mean Lumens. Lumen maintenance was so good with PS/MH and T8 there really wasn't much need to. Now we're talking about Lumen Maintenance being a huge factor in the these we do. To me, that's going backwards.

I'm firmly entrenched on the LED bandwagon when it comes to replacing low wattage HID, but the lumen maintenance issue is simply too big to ignore. I'm still a skeptic with most LED and almost all induction (which seems to not be dropping in price as swiftly as LED). Metal Halide has dimming options and a great track record, so when it comes to pole lighting that's my go-to solution.

Great info, wish you were local to me so I could give you some business. I'm looking at dimmable metal halide as a possible solution to parking lot pole lighting at my buildings, how do potential energy savings stack up vs. standard metal halide?

 

[Open Neutral]

Astronomers have always preferred err hated HID less than broad spectrum illumination because they can filter out the sodium lines. Wonder what they are saying about LED?

 

[Electric-Light]

Astronomers have always preferred err hated HID less than broad spectrum illumination because they can filter out the sodium lines. Wonder what they are saying about LED?

I would say they belong in the special interest group. We can't accommodate around every special interest group. If we did, there is no more motorsports as it tickles the tree hugers the wrong way.

White LEDs are fairly broad spectrum. The common design uses blue narrow spectrum die to excite yellowish broad spectrum phosphor... Literally speaking, LED is a fluorescent lamp.

There are two types of white LEDs. Trichromatic and fluorescent. I don't believe there is any trichromatic white LEDs aside from special applications requiring variable color.

Trichromatic LEDs use three chips. R, G and B to make white.
solid state fluorescent lamps use blue LED chip to excite phosphor. The blue light that passes through phosphor and yellowish light fluoresced by phosphor blend makes white light.

Literally speaking...
Solid-state fluorescent lamps use LED chip to make blue light for exciting phosphor.

Gas tube fluorescent lamps use mercury vapor to make 253.7nm UV light for exciting phosphor and most of dangerous short UV is filtered by glass.