Inground pool

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ronbannon

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I was inspecting a pool in ground and found some problems I thought?
1-several neutrals under 1 termination. 408.21 you are only permitted 1
2-the deck box which is about 10' from pool and approx. 12" off ground. I had asked to provide an approved seal according to 680.24(B)(1)(3).
3-The feed for the pump motor went from the house to a timer 240V than to the pump hard wired. the timer was rated for motor and had a lockable cover and on/off lever. could this be used as motor disconnect?
Also I asked for a disconnecting means for the motor controller.
680 doesn't address motor controllers. went to 430.81(A) which describes motor controller. it fits . so went to 430.102(A) which calls for a disconnecting means for the motor controller? Please I am looking for feed back.
 
Re: Inground pool

ronbannon said:
I was inspecting a pool in ground and found some problems I thought?
1-several neutrals under 1 termination. 408.21 you are only permitted 1
Click to expand...

Is this in the panel board or a disconnect?

ronbannon said:
2-the deck box which is about 10' from pool and approx. 12" off ground. I had asked to provide an approved seal according to 680.24(B)(1)(3).
Click to expand...

does it have one? if not then red tag

ronbannon said:
3-The feed for the pump motor went from the house to a timer 240V than to the pump hard wired. the timer was rated for motor and had a lockable cover and on/off lever. could this be used as motor disconnect?
Click to expand...

Yes in my thinking it is.

ronbannon said:
Also I asked for a disconnecting means for the motor controller.
680 doesn't address motor controllers. went to 430.81(A) which describes motor controller. it fits . so went to 430.102(A) which calls for a disconnecting means for the motor controller? Please I am looking for feed back.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't it also be GFCI protected? I usually deal with 120V pumps but installing a disconnect in sight of the timer with a 2 pole GFCI breaker is what I would do in this instance.
 
ronbannon wrote:
3-The feed for the pump motor went from the house to a timer 240V than to the pump hard wired. the timer was rated for motor and had a lockable cover and on/off lever. could this be used as motor disconnect?

If this is a normal time clock with over ride switch i would not accept it as a disconnect.If the timer was set to lets say 3:05 to turn on and the service man turned it to off at 3:04 he is about to get killed in 60 seconds
 
time clock is not a disconect. GFI required only if cord and plug connected. Install disconect between motor and time clock
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
If this is a normal time clock with over ride switch i would not accept it as a disconnect.If the timer was set to lets say 3:05 to turn on and the service man turned it to off at 3:04 he is about to get killed in 60 seconds
Click to expand...

This is why the code calls for the motor control to have a disconnecting means in sight. and any idiot using proper safety measures would lock out the controller device and the disconnect so that no one can turn them back on or so that they will not turn themselves back on. If it is a digital type clock device when you switch them to off the timer is disabled and if it is a rotary type timer device you simply pull the green "on switch levers" but I would still throw the disconnect or breaker. Thats why I install receptacles for disposers and place a disposer cord on them. you won't see me sticking my hand in a disposer without pulling the plug. Safety Safety and more Safety.
 
Cavie said:
time clock is not a disconect. GFI required only if cord and plug connected. Install disconect between motor and time clock
Click to expand...

In this scenario you will need two disconnects and what do you mean "if cord and plug connected"? won't that be necessary to operate the motor?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
To use it as a disconnect would require it to be listed as such ? right or wrong ?
Click to expand...

The code defines disconnecting means " A device, or group of devices or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from there source of supply." this can be a simple snap switch or a plug on a cord. if I unplug it it is disconnected.
 
Hey, don't forget article 680.10 for required 18 inch depth of PVC conduit if within 5 feet of the pool !

That one has a lot of the electricians around here screaming "article 300.5" - until I ask them to look up 680.10. :D

BTW - does anyone know when the 18 inch depth requirement went into effect in the code book? I understand the intent is for stray voltage protection. I believe it initially appeared in the 1975 edition, but I do not have that code book.

Any help?

thanks -
 
I agree to the depth as 18" I am not sure when that came into effect I will check. Also It is permissable to hard wire a pump and not gfi protect it not that if it were my pool I would, I would gfi it anyway. the 2 main points that are being argued is whether you need to disconnect the timer as
a motor controller 430.102 (A), Also will you need duct seal in deck box
680.24(B)(1)(3). The panel is the main panel for the house.
 
Using the 2002 cycle of the NEC

680.20 General.
Electrical installations at permanently installed pools shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part II of this article.

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.
One or more means to disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be accessible and within sight from its equipment.

As stated in 680.12 the disconnect must open all ungrounded (hot) conductors. If this timer has a manual off switch that disconnects ALL ungrounded (hot) conductors then it will comply.

The junction box is above the deck and will not need potting compound
 
The disconnecting means is for motor and see that timer is considered motor controller 430.102(A) would require a disconnect also.
what about 680.24(B)(1)(3) which requires a seal
680.20 General.
Electrical installations at permanently installed pools shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part II of this article.

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.
One or more means to disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be accessible and within sight from its equipment.

As stated in 680.12 the disconnect must open all ungrounded (hot) conductors. If this timer has a manual off switch that disconnects ALL ungrounded (hot) conductors then it will comply.

The junction box is above the deck and will not need potting compound[/quote]
 
Not to be disrespectfull of pool wiremen in florida but if you saw what they do you would have to pick your jaw off the ground.They estimate the amount of pipe needed then dig a shallow trench barely enough to cover the pipe since it is 99% covered with a concrete deck then the bend the pipe with thier knees after feeding the wire through the sections of pipe.The inspectors are big on bonding the pool grid and screen enclosures and any metal parts close to the pool IE: diving boards windows etc.No gfci for standard hard wired installs.The pool panels have a built in disc. switch for the pump.But most are not of the indicating type.This has been a question I have pondered for years but have not as of yet been able to get a definitive answer on.I don`t do many pools but the ones I have done get a disconnect before the pool panel and I have passed all without a hitch.BTW I dig the 18 in for the pvc pipe :wink:
 
The pool pumps , here up north, are cord & plug connected so they can be taken in in the winter. We don't want the pool boys disconnecting & reconnecting hard wire pumps.
 
Re: Inground pool

ronbannon said:
I was inspecting a pool in ground and found some problems I thought?
1-several neutrals under 1 termination. 408.21 you are only permitted 1
Click to expand...

I will agree if this is in a panel

ronbannon said:
2-the deck box which is about 10' from pool and approx. 12" off ground. I had asked to provide an approved seal according to 680.24(B)(1)(3).
Click to expand...

What is contained in this ?deck box?? If it is just a junction for the lighting fixture then 680.24 (B)(1)(3) will not apply

ronbannon said:
3-The feed for the pump motor went from the house to a timer 240V than to the pump hard wired. The timer was rated for motor and had a lockable cover and on/off lever. could this be used as motor disconnect?
Also I asked for a disconnecting means for the motor controller.
680 doesn't address motor controllers. went to 430.81(A) which describes motor controller. it fits . so went to 430.102(A) which calls for a disconnecting means for the motor controller? Please I am looking for feed back.
Click to expand...

See 430.83(C)
 
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