Inspectors Authority

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iwire

iwire

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In reading many posts on the forums, and not just the recent ones, I keep seeing something that puzzles me.

Inspectors that feel it is part of their authority to change or add rules to the NEC at will. Usually they will cite 90.4 or 110.3(A) as the sections that allow this.

IMO this is absolutely an abuse of their position.

The NEC has been refined for about 100 years by groups of well informed dedicated individuals. There is time for public comment as the refinements are made, studies are undertaken, accidents are examined etc.

Now an inspector comes along with 10, 30, 40 years of experience in the field and wants to rewrite the code based on their own idea of what is "right" or what the NEC missed.

I can not understand how an individual would believe that they know better than a 100 years of CMPs?

I am sorry for the ranting, this subject is one that instantly upsets me. :mad:

Am I the only one that feels this way?

Bob
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

I am very much with you.It makes working in differant counties and city a very difficult and costly thing.Hard enough keeping up with just the nec changes.And down here we seem to have electricians that managed to pass a masters test but are far from the level to make codes.
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Bob
As a contractor, I always had to deal with this situation. An advantage I have today from years ago, is this forum and others like it, and more contact with individuals from outside the area where I have worked for years.

Recently I have become an inspector as you well know. I put a lot of thought into every inspection, the same as the effort and thought that went into installations when I was a contractor.

When I was a contractor, 90.4 was not a section of the code that thrilled me. 110.3(B) has been a large determining factor of my decisions for years.

As you can see from this forum, not everyone reads the same language when reading any section of the NEC. A recent example is the 8 page thread regarding 'outlets'. Well over 100 responses as to the differing thoughts of what an outlet is and is not :) . You even recently wrote how sometimes the responses leave you feeling like your reading skills may not be adequate after reading through some of the different responses. I have to say that sometimes I feel the same way :D .

I will cap this post with 2 thoughts to ponder:
1. Interpretation can be a two edged sword.
2. I have stated many times, that any individual who has worked hard [and it takes years and hard work to learn the code(s)]to learn the code will have less difficulty with some inspections/inspectors.

Pierre
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Inspectors that make up their own rules make honest inspectors look stupid. When I red-tag a violation that I think the EE may have never been called on, I always write the NEC section on my report to make certain they know that I do not make up the rules as I go along.

I have also had some pretty nice "discussions" with inspectors about this in classes that I have taught with inspectors present.
 
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In my opinion I don't think it is fair to accuse inspectors of changing or adding rules of their own. How is it possible for an inspector to change or add the rules when he/she is bound by the same codes as we are? Correct me if I am wrong but, an inspector's interpretation is not necessarily written in stone and may be challenged. This is one of the checks and balances that is intended to prevent individual interpretation and influence, is it not?

Bob
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Originally posted by bthielen:
In my opinion I don't think it is fair to accuse inspectors of changing or adding rules of their own. How is it possible for an inspector to change or add the rules when he/she is bound by the same codes as we are? Correct me if I am wrong but, an inspector's interpretation is not necessarily written in stone and may be challenged. This is one of the checks and balances that is intended to prevent individual interpretation and influence, is it not?

Bob
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Yes Bob, youare correct, however, some inspectors won't budge when they are wrong, and some installers are too afraid to challenge an inspector. :(
 
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I too belive the issue is two sided. Electricians bring problems to the table as well.

Many young electricians and apprentices only hear the bad experiences with inspectors from their supervisors and journeyman, even though it may have only been one inspection in a hundred. They are immediately given an attitude about inspectors before they ever really get to know them or work with one.

The words "authority having jurisdiction" raises feelings of defiance. Electricians that have practiced this craft for years, and have taken years of school, and have worked on 1000's of projects are sensitive to criticism about their work. It is taken personally, even when the inspector doesn't intend for it to come out that way.

At the same time, inspectors are under paid, overworked, and under appreciated. They know they are disliked and talked about behind their backs. They are treated like they have leprosy by contractors and never get to establish a good relationship with them.

I do believe there are those inspectors that are in this business for the wrong reason. They are like cops that are not interested in public saftey, but gluttons for power and control. In many communities, these type of inspectors can't and won't be tolerated. Building departments and state enforcement agencies don't want the liabilty and controversy in their offices these people bring.

I have one suggestion. If you have not introduced yourself to your inspector and building depatment, do it today. Make an appointment with the inspector and tell them about yourself. Earn their respect and maybe even professional friendship. Make sure they know your interested in the protection of persons and property and that you appreciate their assistance in this endeveour. It can make all the difference.
 
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I have had the good fortune - apparently the uncommonly good fortune - to work with reasonable AHJs over the years. Several of them have also had the gift of teaching and I?ve learned a great deal. I?ve seen them modeled here by several of our resident inspectors on the forum.

For the first time in 35 years I?m dealing with a CBO who only knows 90.4 ? and he misunderstands it. He seems to believe it?s a free grant of prerogative rather than a responsibility to understand and interpret the NEC. It?s actually 90.1(C) that applies to him. This week he had our contractor remove a totally compliant temporary branch circuit and replace it with a non-compliant one. We are in the process of getting his ruling reversed as I?m writing this. As a PE and the owners representative, I have already ordered the circuit locked out until its corrected.

I?ve only been involved with this project a bit over 4 months and so far he has batted 0 with regard to NEC interpretations. I?ve already had 6 of his rulings overturned. If I had been on the project from the beginning it would have been more than 20. (Before I arrived, he issued a stop order the on project because the concrete for UG ductbanks wasn?t ?red enough? in his opinion :roll: )

My biggest gripe is that he has absolutely no personal liability in his decisions. This latest event is the first one that could get someone hurt though. Usually he just creates enormously excessive costs.
 
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90.4 should be reserved for issues grey or not specific in the NEC and issues where the code can be "field tweaked" where the SAME level of safety can be maintained and special permission can be given. Too many people are "book smart" now days and sway away from common sense. Some inspectors have never bent a stick of thinwall in their life or had a pair of kliens in their hand and take the letter of the code on its face with no perception of real world problems and solutions. They only know what they read. 90.4 can give an inspector who is a veteran electrician some leeway in making a "common sense call". ;)
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Originally posted by bphgravity:

I have one suggestion. If you have not introduced yourself to your inspector and building depatment, do it today. Make an appointment with the inspector and tell them about yourself. Earn their respect and maybe even professional friendship. Make sure they know your interested in the protection of persons and property and that you appreciate their assistance in this endeveour. It can make all the difference.
Click to expand...
Excellent advice. My policy is to aquaint myself with any and all inspectors in whose jurisdiction I work. I show up for inspections, I get to know the inspector. I also find it useful to ask questions of the inspector ahead of time. If I'm working with a new inspector, or in a new jurisdiction, I will ask about there preferences and interpretations of code related to my above ceiling inspection when they are on site for the wall inspection. That way, I can give them what they want before the inspection occurs. It also tends to give them the impression that I am flexible enough to work with them. Once I've established a relationship, I make a practice of calling for opinions when dealing with issues at are grey or subject to multiple interpretations.

I figure that both the inspector and I have a job to do. In terms of safety, we ultimately have the same end goal in mind. We all get there a lot quicker if we work together. Which is not to say that I am willing to adhere to the absurd, or to allow for an inspector to make it up as he goes along. But, in my experience, a bit of cooperation and a bit of proactive questioning tends to make the absurd go away.
 
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With all the teachings and seminars as to the code, many people who are inspectors FORGET that it is only their job to ENFORCE the code, not interpret or rewrite it. This has been a long standing problem.Its no wonder that so many jobs are done without permits, especially when a particular town has a rewriting expert.
 
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Wireddd, actually interpreting is part of the AHJ's responsibility. Read 90.4. I agree this doesn't allow anyone to rewrite or add to the NEC with out going through the proper proceedures, which is not an overnight process.

Roger
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Hi Everyone,

I just got back from vacation, and I found this discussion. By the way, missed you all... :)

Well, I have had many a run in with inspectors, but those are the ones who over do therir jobs. To be honest, most of them are understanding, but I agree with the person who said give them a call. When I have code issues that come back, I simply call them before submitting the answers. That usually helps a whole lot, and I get to know the inspectors.

Honestly, at times when they hear my young voice on the phone, I often get treated as a neo-tradeswomen or engineer, and feel on the defensive, most of it is my own insecurity. :)

[ September 09, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Here is a slightly different slant on the same subject:

Our local electrical inspector requires a "fault calculation form" to be filled out for each and every new electrical service. Either the engineer or the electrical contractor is required to complete and sign the form and "assume responsibility for the values given".

I think the inspector has the right to see fault calculations and compare them to the rating of the service equipment. But, I have two issues with this "required" form:

1. The engineer or contractor is required to fill out transformer KVA and impedence. But the POCO can change the transfomer anytime they want.

2. The form is so detailed, the inspector is basically telling us how to perform the calculations.

I think we should be allowed to submit calculations in our own format, and they should accept "estimated" values based on the fact we can't be responsible if the POCO installs a larger or lower Z transformer.

Comments?

Steve
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Hi Steve. I also ask for fault current calculations, but I do not provide a form for it. I also only ask for it on commercial jobs. I have questioned the numbers before, but typically when the engineer submits his/her values, they are accurate and that is the end of the process.
 
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I started this thread not in response to inspectors I deal with but in response to a few that post here and the electricians that post here with horror stories of inspectors requiring things not in the code.

I can only remember one inspector that I had a problem with in this regard.

I called to have about 150' of PVC inspected before back filling a trench. This was a branch circuit feeding pole lights. The inspector would not sign off until "ELECTRIC LINE BELOW" tape was placed in the trench.

Most days I would have some on site as it is something normally in the job specs. This day I was out and I had to either delay the job for weeks while I appealed or spend 2 hours in traffic running to get a role of warning ribbon. I went and got the ribbon. :)

Bob
 
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I know what you are saying,he should have let you go ahead and start filling the ditch and let someone else go an fetch the ribbon.To me the ribbon should be placed just below finished grade as far above the buried pipe as possible not just above it,,,,,think about it,by the time someone digs down and notices the ribbon they've already cut through your conduits.
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

Originally posted by jap2525:
I know what you are saying,he should have let you go ahead and start filling the ditch and let someone else go an fetch the ribbon.
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No, what I am saying is he had no authority to ask for any ribbon in the first place.

Originally posted by jap2525:
To me the ribbon should be placed just below finished grade as far above the buried pipe as possible not just above it,,,,,think about it,by the time someone digs down and notices the ribbon they've already cut through your conduits.
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I agree entirely and most times we do that for all we bury. :D

[ September 10, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Inspectors Authority

I don't know how it's done every where else, but the municipalities around me have their amendments, adopted by their city councils as legal law. Some use the NEC, some the Chicago electrical code, and a few have their own code books. Which ever code or amendment is used, must be adopted by the city legislature not the inspector.
 
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