Inspectors conflicting

[sameguy]

Understood,
So tell them to just live in the failing conditions and walk.
This just in: house burns down due to faulty old wiring killing all inside, traffic cameras show cuz electric at house two days before, cuz owner states not my fault they could not afford to bring things to full code. The part of the code is the "breaker" , the wire and devices are the same but we can't do one unless we do all!

 

[kwired]

Unfortunately, just reread section of code, I was originally told by AHJ no AFCI required, but was just called and told by him he was wrong and it does need to be brought up to code, AFCI is required. Quoting 210.12(D) Branch Circuit Extension or Modification - Dwelling Units and Dormitory Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A) of (B), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of branch circuit......
So it appears that if you replace damaged wire it needs AFCI protection. I too have to break it to the customer the job just jumped up by $1200.

And is a reason I don't prioritize residential work, unless maybe it is new construction or major additions anyway, just don't need the headaches of this kind of thing. Yes you were proposing to improve what was there, no you weren't proposing something that complies with current code. On top of that once you install the AFCI you sort of commit to warrantying all nuisance trips for the next year or so at the very least, so your $1200 price jump may not even be that justified and needs to be more.

 

[kwired]

The wording implies anything you do to the circuit will require AFP. If so, why say "if extend circuit more than 6'???

The main reason for this 6 foot wording was for situation of replacing panelboard or similar activity.

How many times you been replacing a panelboard and need to extend conductors to reach new destination even if just a few inches? This allows extending those conductors up to six feet without having to include AFCI. If you are relocating the panelboard and it will mean more than six feet of the branch circuits will be moved, replaced, or otherwise disturbed, then whether you agree with intent or not, the wording says you must use AFCI on those circuits that otherwise require it per 210.12.

 

[sameguy]

Just reread, where I got could not afford from?
To the op question the code is the code follow it and yes more money.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Just starting job that was left unfinished (or at least uninspected) and contacted inspector about some questions and got two different answers from two inspectors. New homeowner wants the old wire that hadn't been updated replaced (old brittle cloth wrap and bx) and receptacles with no grounds. No problem with fixing that, but question is do I need to add AFCI breakers on all circuits that would require them as if it was new install or leave old standard breakers and just update the wire? There is no plans for any added circuits or additional outlet receptacles? One inspector says most definitely have to add AFCI on all the applicable circuits. Other inspector says it's a repair no need to change what is there.
If anything by putting grounded wire in it will make it safer for use with grounded tools or appliances compared to using those cheater adapters on the end of the plug.
Which inspector is right? Adding all AFCIs would add at least $1500 to the job, if I can even get them. Not that cost is a problem just getting them might be.

I think the answer for this particular situation is get the AFCIs. If you can’t then revisit the topic.
Especially after saying cost isn’t a problem...

 

[mwm1752]

406.4(D)(4). is clear - yes replace a receptacle,update the protection- how you achieve the protection is up to you. the 406.4(D)(4) exception baisically states that that the 210.12(B) exception does not apply for replacements. Therfore even though the work may have been less than a 6' extension updating protection is still required.

 

[paulengr]

Unfortunately, just reread section of code, I was originally told by AHJ no AFCI required, but was just called and told by him he was wrong and it does need to be brought up to code, AFCI is required. Quoting 210.12(D) Branch Circuit Extension or Modification - Dwelling Units and Dormitory Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A) of (B), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of branch circuit......
So it appears that if you replace damaged wire it needs AFCI protection. I too have to break it to the customer the job just jumped up by $1200.

Branch circuit WIRiNG. So if I replace some NM because it is damaged, I have to add the AFCI. A receptacle isn’t wiring.

 

[Fred B]

Tone Tracing some of the old wiring had some bx and found this:

Bare copper live circuits no tripping, would afci caught this.

 

[david]

Which inspector is right?

In answering this question as asked I see this as a discussion on the NEC, In reading this thread I am not sure we are discussing the NEC or how do I bid or contract work when compliance is costly

 

[kwired]

Tone Tracing some of the old wiring had some bx and found this:
View attachment 2553998
Bare copper live circuits no tripping, would afci caught this.

Not unless some current with arcing signatures would develop or depending on the AFCI if enough ground fault current would flow.

 

[kwired]

In answering this question as asked I see this as a discussion on the NEC, In reading this thread I am not sure we are discussing the NEC or how do I bid or contract work when compliance is costly

You decide whether it is worth it to take on the potential liability if something bad should happen and they find out you didn't do it to code.

 

[Fred B]

In answering this question as asked I see this as a discussion on the NEC, In reading this thread I am not sure we are discussing the NEC or how do I bid or contract work when compliance is costly

Recap synopsis: It started from point of two inspectors giving contradictory point views of compliance. One said AFCI the other No AFCI. Eventually the one inspector called to state he was mistaken and agreed with first inspector, AFCI. It evolved or devolved from there, compliance or noncompliance costs either money or safety. "I need to make it safe and customer says they don't have what it costs." Then further moved to a debate of whether you can have a safe but noncompliant installation. And whether it is better to take a totally unsafe situation and make it "safer" even if it is "noncompliant" under current code but might have been compliant 1 or 2 cycles earlier.
From my perspective once both inspectors agreed I had my answer. And several felt code is code. Just that the dissenting inspector had me questioning my understanding of code, even though I was hoping there was a way to save customer money on product that I make nothing from, at least in this particular case.
As a side question, is there a difference in the NECA for labor between a standard breaker and an AFCI breaker installation? In real time it doesn't take me much if any extra.

 

[ptonsparky]

One thing we do on older houses, where we can, is consolidate some of those branch circuits. Two or three bedrooms could possibly be put on one circuit. A lot of older homes have one receptacle per circuit. It was easier to add at the time.

 

[Rdcowart]

Guys, just because you are not required to have an inspection does not relieve you of the responsibility of doing it right.
Try using that argument in front of a judge and jury.

I agree. I don’t care how much the customer doesn’t like the fact that we have to add afci protection. It would be like going to an older home that was built before gfci protection was code and replacing the bathroom outlet and not installing a gfci. It’s all about safety. Code is bear minimum And adding anything extra is going above and beyond. i hate that it adds extra cost to the job, but I am in the business of safety and making money.

 

[Rock86]

Branch circuit WIRiNG. So if I replace some NM because it is damaged, I have to add the AFCI. A receptacle isn’t wiring.

If you do this, the AFCI device would have to be at the first homerun connection point, no? So if you break the NM at receptacle #3, you need to trace the circuit until you find receptacle #1. you can't just through an AFCI randomly into the circuit. Any objections to this interpretation of the code?

 

[Fred B]

If you do this, the AFCI device would have to be at the first homerun connection point, no? So if you break the NM at receptacle #3, you need to trace the circuit until you find receptacle #1. you can't just through an AFCI randomly into the circuit. Any objections to this interpretation of the code?

At some point there might be advantages to just putting in an AFCI breaker I would assume.

 

[Rock86]

At some point there might be advantages to just putting in an AFCI breaker I would assume.

Unless you follow the letter of the code and just encase all your wire runs with 2inches of concrete from the panel to every box there after. Home owner wont mind that.

 

[kwired]

Unless you follow the letter of the code and just encase all your wire runs with 2inches of concrete from the panel to every box there after. Home owner wont mind that.

I'd have to do a little reading to confirm, but I think that would only relieve you from needing to provide AFCI protection to the entire branch circuit, you still would need AFCI protection at receptacle outlets at very least, I think.

 

[Rock86]

I'd have to do a little reading to confirm, but I think that would only relieve you from needing to provide AFCI protection to the entire branch circuit, you still would need AFCI protection at receptacle outlets at very least, I think.

Its been a while since i have read that exact line, i just remember it being so ridiculous.

 

[Rdcowart]

from my understanding is that unless you have mc or conduit ran to your first receptacle. that is the only time you can use a afci receptacle. The reasoning behind it is it would leave the home run unprotected.