Inspectors - detectives maybe one in the same

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Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
As some of you here may know, I was an owner/inspector for a while. I am again for a short time back in that seat. (long story not worth wasting your time telling)

For the last few weeks I am fielding calls that most in the office won't or don't want to take. I have a very passive stance in most cases, and never lose my temper as an inspector.

I have taken a bunch of calls from homeowners that are really trying my patience lately though - talk about "lying through your teeth".
2 in particular stand out.
One of the girls in my office hands me an application (a roughing inspection was completed the day before) and says something is wrong, can I figure it out. I asked her if she did any "investigation" and she said the homeowner screamed at her (that is very common these days - where has respect gone?).
I "investigated" the paperwork and sure enough, something is not right... it looks like the homeowner filed the job - not permitted in our County. I spoke to the inspector, his response was he did not know the name of the contractor, but he doesn't know all of their names anyway, that is why he went on the inspection (I see a new procedure may need to be developed).
I called her and asked her if she filed the work... no Mr. Belarge, my electrician filed the paper work and did the work. There was no EC info on the application. I asked her for her EC's name and she told me who he was. I told her I would call him, and the screaming, then yelling and finally crying commensed. She threatened me for harassment, yet I kept pursueing this. I finally called the EC and he said he did not file it and did not do the work. I called the homeowner again (after calling the County office and the building department) and told her that I needed to visit her property and that I would be assisted by the County Code enforcer and the Building Inspector and we would need the name of the person who did the work. She went beserk! She will not allow access, so the County will now pursue this further.
45 minutes of my day on one stinking application (an $85.00 inspection), what a pain. Now you may understand why some inspectors do not want to answer phone calls.

Welcome back to the world of inspecting :D
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
45 minutes of my day on one stinking application (an $85.00 inspection), what a pain.
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That's what prosecution, fines, penalties, and re-inspection charges are for.

The message must get out that, in the end, it costs less to do it legally.


Besides, isn't your work fun? Didn't you enjoy the experience? I would have.

(I hope you guys realize I'm looking out for us, not DIY'ers)
 
What people don't seem to realize, when they attempt to burn down their home by saving a few dollars and doing the work themselves, is that someday, some other poor slob will own that home. Someone who paid good money and expected a compliant installation in their dwelling.

I'm glad we have at least some folks like Pierre following up.
 
noxx said:
I'm glad we have at least some folks like Pierre following up.
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Agreed. While I may disagree with an inspector, I never argue with one. They're worth putting up with.

I also don't complain when asked for ID to cash a check; I once complained that I wasn't asked for it, though.
 
I am surprised she bothered to get a permit in the first place.

What possible benefit is there to getting a permit in such a situation?
 
iwire said:
The same 'benefit' of paying our taxes.

Complying with the law.
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My point was more along the lines of:

She can't legally get a permit apparently, so she invented an EC that did not exist (at least that is what I got from Pierre's post).

That seems like a pretty convoluted way to "comply" with the law to me.
 
Sounds to me like this woman has something to hide! Even if she took a short cut or 2, she would be better off taking her lumps now, than to have the county mounties bust in there.

Some places allow home owners to get permits (but not here) that require the home owner to have inspections and follow code.

It would be nice if all HO that understood that the permit & inspection process is a benefit to them and could even PROTECT them from shoddy work.

I had a guy this week ask me to bid a "outdoor" kitchen. He is having a "L" shaped island custom built in his backyard. It is going to be complete with disposal, small fridge, on demand water heater, stainless steel gas grill, & electric warmer drawer. He does not want me to pull a permit, because the plumber didn't. (Plumber tapped into fresh water, sewer, and gas lines.) I told him that I would not do the work without a permit, and plumber better get one. He says, "But the plumber's ditch is back filled". "I don't care" I said. "That's his problem!"
 
I just had a furnace and a/c unit replaced and an attic fan installed. No permits. I did hire it done by a very reputable contractor though.

I am quite comfortable with the work he did. I don't see how having it inspected afterward would have made the contractor any more reliable, or insured the work was done any better.

In this area very little of this type of work is permitted.

I have not seen any significant amount of the unpermitted work blowing up.
 
I live close to the NY. line, I know some electricians over there and they say the good thing about having inspectors for hire is if your not happy with one you can try another, There in the business, Nothing personal against you Pierre.;) I've dealt with a couple over there in the Rensselaer and Washington County area and I felt they were very professional. But I agree, if she was trying to beat the system then why even bother filing a permit.:confused: The world is full of nuts isn't it.:rolleyes:
 
Permits

Permits

Hi All

Where I work we are and were remodeling all floors , they are medical offices, nurse station, exam rooms, patients rooms, The vice president that is very tight with cash like a crabs a at high tide , tried for weeks for me to sign my name on the electrical permits, I kept showing him that I could not sign it because it was illegal , He had all planned out to hire non licensed contractor to do the job, on their second day working I called the city Inspector , on the third day the inspector arrived in the morning, they ran out and left their tools,, work was stopped, " the inspector is here go home go hide" ,, Good wellnown licensed contractor got the job done and did a great job for us... the vice
president came down and a pretty lady got his job..
 
petersonra said:
I just had a furnace and a/c unit replaced and an attic fan installed. No permits. I did hire it done by a very reputable contractor though.

I am quite comfortable with the work he did. I don't see how having it inspected afterward would have made the contractor any more reliable, or insured the work was done any better.

In this area very little of this type of work is permitted.

I have not seen any significant amount of the unpermitted work blowing up.
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Correct me if I wrong, but (here at least) I'm under the impression that equipment *replacment* need not be permitted. The attic fan may also fall beneath the dollar value of work requiring a permit in some areas.
 
noxx said:
Correct me if I wrong, but (here at least) I'm under the impression that equipment *replacment* need not be permitted. The attic fan may also fall beneath the dollar value of work requiring a permit in some areas.
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BTW, I hope I'm not wrong, because I've replaced a lot of panels w/o permits back in my resi days.
 
I have had some very similar days Pierre. Last week, I went to pool inspection and noticed a new spa on the new pool deck. I questioned the homeowner on its installation considering it was not listed on the permit application. He stated he worked out a deal with one of the electricians working on the pool equipment to wire the spa over a weekend. As you can imagine this becomes a difficult issue to work out.

We have many occasions where homeowners begin to occupy a structure before all finals and the C of O is awarded. This creates a real fiasco. Homeowners’ trying to complete their own work is a real mess MOST of the time. Developers building shell occupancies seem to prefer completing work before its inspected and then playing dumb later. And then when they don't build to the approved plans they don't seem to understand why they need to submit a revision. It goes on and on.

And of course there are those daily calls of just about every question that has ever been posted on this Forum! If there is ever a day that I actually just go out and complete my inspections with no controversy whats so ever, I would have to figure there is something really, really wrong.
 
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noxx said:
Correct me if I wrong, but (here at least) I'm under the impression that equipment *replacment* need not be permitted. The attic fan may also fall beneath the dollar value of work requiring a permit in some areas.
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I think it varies a lot. I live in a village where the village leaders are not hell bent on controlling every aspect of our citizens lives. The village itself does not even levy a property tax so they have little incentive to care as much about getting your assessment increased, so they probably are not all that concerned about getting permits for minor work.

My guess is that virtually none of this kind of work is permitted in my village or in most of the surrounding area.

In fact, I am proud to report the village I live in recently fired its electrical inspector and is now farming that work out to the county.
 
The woman filed the application (where did she find one?) because she had an open CO on the house and is applying for a loan. Apparently she had a few proposals and decided to do it herself. She will be fined for unlicensed/unpermitted work and the DA has the app she filed. The worst part is I have to go to her home next week.

Yes we are a 3rd party ("for hire" - I wear a belt with 2 holsters for quick draw - one holster red tags, the other green tags ;) ), we are empowered by the jurisdiction and hired by the EC. It seems from the outside like a conflict of interest, but generally it is not... just ask the contractors.
One poster mentioned the fact that it is possible to go from one inspection company to the other until the job passes. That has and may still happen, but too many have been caught and fined. So it is starting to dwindle down to a trickle.
The bigger issue in this area is the amount of untrained installers and inspectors. A jurisdiction can and I sometimes think, hire almost anyone they want as an electrical inspector. NYS does not enforce the requirements for electrical inspectors to be licensed, trained or receive any CEUs, not 5 minutes worth... this is something I have been working on for about 3 years... I have run into a brick wall called NYS Government. They say that if they enforce the requirements that too many of the existing inspectors will have to retire and the state will be short handed electrical inspectors, leaving the electrical inspections to the building department.


One poster asked if I derived pleasure from this. Not that I derive pleasure from it, as it was not fun, and will not be pleasureable at all next week going to this women's house to deal with this. But I do feel good that I am in a small way helping the contractors in our area to be somewhat competitive in the fact that nonlicensed individuals are being prosecuted to the fullest the law will allow. I am glad Bryan said what he said in his post, it is always good to see that there are people in this industry who care about the industry and are willing to stick their necks out to protect it. I know that is what I will do till I retire, which will be years from now :eek: :)

Why do I do this? I think it is because I was a contractor who used to get really peaved at times when all of these situations would arise and it seemed like no one cared or so little was done about it. Now I am somewhat in a position to stick my neck out and maybe in my small part help the legitimate contractors, that is where I derive pleasure from.
 
Pierre,

I'm certainly glad to hear of your efforts to bring some sort of requirements together for electrical inspectors in NYS. IMO a unified state electrical code puts everyone, inspectors and contractors, on the same playing field. Electrical inspectors are licensed and regulated by the state. Electrical contractors are required to get 32 continuing education credits for our triennial license renewal. I think that licensed electrical inspectors have a similar requirement.

I guess that the people in Albany will continue to stonewall your efforts because as my colleagues in NYS tell me it's largely about money. Makes me happy to work here in New Jersey where one code applies to the entire state. When a problem arises with an inspector the state has a phone number to call to get a single interpretation of the NEC and how it applies here. This makes what you do in one county the same as what you would do in the next.
 
I did a service upgrade for a guy recently where he gutted his whole house and rewired it himself without a permit. He then wanted me to do some more work on the place, but I refused to touch his wiring because the code violations were obvious. He also asked me to help him troubleshoot the three-way switching in the kitchen that wasn't working. I don't know what he did, but I measured about 40V H-N and H-G at one outlet, and I said that he needed to get a permit and an inspection if he wanted me to do anything further. He didn't like that idea because he didn't have the time or money to fix what would be a lot of violations.
 
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