Inspectors rant again

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ptonsparky said:
One of the most interesting EC Association meetings we had was with a Lawyer.
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Was the main topic of discussion business laws - like taxes, insurance, employment, or liability related content? The journeyman may not know or even need to care about taxes, insurance, employment legalities, but your business and it's liability as well as his potential personal liability - even as an employee could be worth an employee's attention.
 
cowboyjwc said:
So how is it that in 2013, I have to write up 210.4(B) on almost every service change and new panel install?

Yes I know we didn't adopt the 2008 NEC, here in CA, until 2011, but that still doens't take away the fact that it's been in the code book for 5 years.

Are other inspectors not calling it or is it just a, I'll see what I can get away with attitude? Not that the attitude one seems very cost effective.

OK I'm done.:happyyes:
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I see no reason it would be required just because of a service change unless it is a local thing.
 
WV

WV

kwired said:
How many states do not require continuing education to renew/maintain licenses?

Most code changes are easily covered with just a few hours every year or so.
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No requirements for Continuing Education for apprentices, journeymen, or masters.

Some Continuing Education for Building Code Officials (which includes government-employed electrical inspectors) 1.5 CEUs per year.

I take a minimum of 2.6 CEUs per year.
 
kwired said:
Makes sense doesn't it? Why make the guys doing the bulk of the installations learn anything about what they are doing?
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As a practical matter, how does sleeping thru a class force them to learn anything? The guys that care will stay current, the guys that don't won't.
 
petersonra said:
As a practical matter, how does sleeping thru a class force them to learn anything? The guys that care will stay current, the guys that don't won't.
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Good point. I guess we need to have exams to pass the class before credit for the class will be granted.
 
Voulntary Continuing Education

Voulntary Continuing Education

It happens that just yesterday we (WVIAEI) held a 1 day (.7 CEU) Seminar on "1 & 2 Family Dwellings" for 2011 NEC. We had about 125 inspectors, home inspectors, contractors, and individual electricians attend. We had 4 members of Code-Making Panels team teach the subject. This probably our best turnout. We also had a representative of the local POCO take questions, and several vendor representatives talk about AFCIs. We charge $100 per person and give a copy of the IAEI 1 & 2 Family Dwellings book to each. This was our northern WV session. Tomorrow we will duplicate it in southern WV with an attendance on the order 40 or so.

WV is expected to adopt 2011 this June.

p.s. we did talk about the OPs rant
 
George Stolz said:
Many people are aware of the changes, but test to see if it will be enforced..
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That is the purpose of strategic business management. Where enforcement is infrequent, regulatoy fines may be a manageable cost of doing business, as usual.

Strategic bypass of regulatoy barriors reward private owners & pubic stock holders. Any increase in litigation from occupational hazards are minimized by outsourcing to less litigious-labor organizations, or jurisdictions.
 
augie47 said:
That's way too common in this area also. When a new Code is adopted the inspecting agencies, often thru IAEI, hold training seminars. While a fair number attend, percentage-wise it is low. Too many of the local "electricians" depend on failed inspections as a training tool. 5 years after '08 was adopted I still run across jobs where 210.4 has been ignored. A lot of these guys work at repetitive jobs, seek no training, and are shocked whenever they encounter changes in the Code that they briefly studied in 1993
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I agree with that 100% Gus.

petersonra said:
I see no reason it would be required just because of a service change unless it is a local thing.
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When would be a good time to do it? What's the difference between a service change and a new panel?
 
George Stolz said:
Many people are aware of the changes, but test to see if it will be enforced. That strikes me as a sorry way to operate. We adopt the code fairly quickly in CO, but sometimes people roll their eyes when you tell them they need to buy handle ties, and often try to skate by without.
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Made a call on a guy on January 2 of 2011 (When we adopted the 2008) and he asked when the code went into affect. I said, yesterday. He asked what kind of grace period they had before we started enforcing it. I said this is CA, you've had three years to study the new code, the grace period ended at midnight.

Funny, you have electricians here talking about needing 1.2 to 2.0 (1 CEU = 10 hours) CEU's, every one to two years. As an inspector in the state of CA we're required to have 4.5 CEU's every three years.
 
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cowboyjwc said:
Funny, you have electricians here talking about needing 1.2 to 2.0 (1 CEU = 10 hours) CEU's, every one to two years. As an inspector in the state of CA we're required to have 4.5 CEU's every three years.
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Here all J-men need 15 hours code class each 3 years, plus 6 hours of 'related' class which can be a first aid course, or a OSHA class, or training on new equipment etc.

Inspectors are required to hold a licenses as well so they have to do the above to keep up their license and are required an amount of inspector specific classes, I don't know how many hours or what the class consist of.


I can see both sides of this, on one hand you are installing a new breaker why not get the right one. On the other hand a branch circuit is not being installed and you are citing them about a branch circuit requirement.

Is your area requiring AFCIs on panel swaps? I do not know what MA is doing, I still have not touched an arc fault breaker. :)
 
cowboyjwc said:
I agree with that 100% Gus.



When would be a good time to do it? What's the difference between a service change and a new panel?
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why you force people to make changes to the downstream wiring just because you changed out a service? if you also changed out the panel, then it seems like fair game.
 
fmtjfw said:
..We charge $100 per person and give a copy of the IAEI 1 & 2 Family Dwellings book to each. This was our northern WV session. ..p.s. we did talk about the OPs rant
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My nearest IAEI monthly education meetings are $20-$25, served with hot meals. The information is well presented by our county building-department's Sr. planner, also acting as division IAEI education chair, who has a month to research & prepare each topic, usually inviting industry experts, and distributing handouts for convenient reference in the field.

The education is a resource for anyone wanting to stay current with code changes, and industry practice. The audience is mostly building officials, industry experts, Unions, and shop owners. Corporate shops with strategic cost-avoidance policy will also benefit from these meetings, since the common inspector omissions are usually covered.
 
iwire said:
Is your area requiring AFCIs on panel swaps? I do not know what MA is doing, I still have not touched an arc fault breaker. :)
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I thought about it after someone brought it up. We didn't originally because they were only required in the bed rooms and since you could wire the house anyway you wanted who knew what was on those circuits. I also haven't made them do it yet on service changes since most of the AFCI's would have to be two poles, but I could see that coming.


petersonra said:
why you force people to make changes to the downstream wiring just because you changed out a service? if you also changed out the panel, then it seems like fair game.
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I think I may see where we are having an issue. I'm not making them change any down stream wiring as around here all of our main panels are all-in-ones. If they change out the main panel and it only has a main and a breaker for a sub panel, I don't make them do anything to the sub. Does that make sense?
 
cowboyjwc said:
I think I may see where we are having an issue. I'm not making them change any down stream wiring as around here all of our main panels are all-in-ones. If they change out the main panel and it only has a main and a breaker for a sub panel, I don't make them do anything to the sub. Does that make sense?
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It seems more reasonable.
 
cowboyjwc said:
So how is it that in 2013, I have to write up 210.4(B) on almost every service change and new panel install?

Yes I know we didn't adopt the 2008 NEC, here in CA, until 2011, but that still doens't take away the fact that it's been in the code book for 5 years.

Are other inspectors not calling it or is it just a, I'll see what I can get away with attitude? Not that the attitude one seems very cost effective.

OK I'm done.:happyyes:
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Here in Camarillo, CA, AHJ Residential Panel Upgrade specifically reiterates the need for a breaker handle-tie for 3-Wire 240 VAC Multi-wire Branch Circuits to a single duplex receptacle. Commonly used to serve garbage disposal and dishwasher.
 
I honestly don't see too many mwbc in our residential inspections. Most of our local guys don't use them as often as they could.
As far as continuing education, VA requires a minimal amount every 2 years. In reality, for some of the local contractors, the inspectors are the only place they look to for Code changes. They have the attitude that if it's important then someone should tell them about it. Don't get me wrong, we have good guys that care enough to stay current and some that teach us what's what. To many though it's not Code until someone turns down their work for it.
 
1993 code

1993 code

:huh:
augie47 said:
That's way too common in this area also. When a new Code is adopted the inspecting agencies, often thru IAEI, hold training seminars. While a fair number attend, percentage-wise it is low. Too many of the local "electricians" depend on failed inspections as a training tool. 5 years after '08 was adopted I still run across jobs where 210.4 has been ignored. A lot of these guys work at repetitive jobs, seek no training, and are shocked whenever they encounter changes in the Code that they briefly studied in 1993
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:slaphead:Has the code changed since the 1993 book came out.... whats a training seminar!!!! :lol:
 
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