kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
But today's code does require you to somehow identify which hots and neutral are a set if not otherwise obvious.
Inspectors rant again
- Thread starter cowboyjwc
- Start date
- Status
But today's code does require you to somehow identify which hots and neutral are a set if not otherwise obvious.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
That is not what you stated earlier.
Depending on which code cycle the install was done, the above may have been legit.
Not the #14 on a 20A breaker in this case, but the circuit itself.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
When wiring new circuits, yes; existing NO.
PowerSupportElec
Member
- Location
- Ny
I disagree. It seems as if you are looking for an argument by misconstruing what I said...?That is not what you stated earlier.
When is it legit to have a general receptacle and lighting circuit ran with #14 wire feed from a 20A breaker?Depending on which code cycle the install was done, the above may have been legit.
I'm not sure about the amendments in your area, but when doing a panel or service upgrade here, this would have to be corrected.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Not looking for an argument or misconstruing what you wrote I think.
I believe I said:
And earlier I stated :
PowerSupportElec
Member
- Location
- Ny
Yeah, I don't even know what you are talking about anymore.
But thanks for correcting me :roll:
But thanks for correcting me :roll:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I guess I was pointing out that this identification makes it easier to spot MWBC's and wasn't necessarily saying anything about how to handle them for a service change, but then handle ties or multipole breakers are pretty effective also.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I was taught and always have identified my neutrals with the hots, but not everybody did. Putting in a multipole breaker on 2,4,6 is a bad idea if the neutral is connected with 2,4,and 11 and one has no way of knowing such.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I am merely saying that the circuit outlay described by you may have legit, but not with #14 on a 20A breaker, at the time of the install.
Individual circuits for the bath and kitchens were not always required.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I admit I was guilty a few times adding a MWBC to a panel and if spaces right next to one another were not available, the "hots" could be scattered around the panel. But it wasn't any violation at the time and means of identifying the "set" wasn't required either. Handle ties or multipole breakers kind of makes this something you can not do anymore. It is kind of nice to quickly identify which neutral goes with the rest of the circuit conductors also.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Me too.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
So much to say on the OP and what augie said. Lack of Code knowledge by electricians and contractors using corrections as a learning tool.
The other learning tool is what passes in every city. I find most of the time whatever the issue; it was not specifically passed, but overlooked.
There's just not a lot of motivation to stay current on Codes.
Ask most any electrician what a multi-wire branch circuit is and you will probably get a blank stare. Ask him what a full boat is though and they can tell you. Too bad you can't look up full boat in the NEC.
With regard to the handle tie issue, I still run across people who think it only applies to furniuture partitions. Mostly though (unless we have met before) they are all clueless about the handle tie and grouping.
The other learning tool is what passes in every city. I find most of the time whatever the issue; it was not specifically passed, but overlooked.
There's just not a lot of motivation to stay current on Codes.
Ask most any electrician what a multi-wire branch circuit is and you will probably get a blank stare. Ask him what a full boat is though and they can tell you. Too bad you can't look up full boat in the NEC.
With regard to the handle tie issue, I still run across people who think it only applies to furniuture partitions. Mostly though (unless we have met before) they are all clueless about the handle tie and grouping.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Proper administration of reinspection fees helps make learning by correction orders an expensive way to learn:happyyes:
Charge nothing or even $25 maybe $50 for reinspecting after a correction notice is made and many will just see it as a necessary expense at times. Start charging $75-$100 or even more and they will learn pretty fast.
north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
: - :
increase in learning will occur, ...on both sides of the counter!
This is not a uniform, consistent world, and interpretation of
the various codes; even amongst those who regularly try to stay
current, is an ongoing effort......Harder for some than others.
In some AHJ's, it is not politically correct or agreeable to
place large fines on the contracting community......This type of
[ desired ?? ] activity can get someone fired pretty quickly.
Everyone does not have the same desire to try to learn or even
to stay somewhat current....A carrot [ of some type ] would be
the optimal first choice, rather than a stick......Unfortunately,
"carrots" usually cost money and time to initiate, and in the
short term, most AHJ's do not have the resources [ i.e. - time,
money, personnel, knowledge ] or see the need for "carrots"
to be implemented......It is easier to have a "path of least
resistance" [ meaning, ...little or no enforcement ] of what has
been actually adopted as law in that jurisdiction.........Every day
here, it is a roll of the dice.......Will the contractor [ any of the
trades ] or homeowner actually try to abide by the adopted
codes, or will they just resort to making a telephone call or
two, to not have to comply with the laws [ codes ] ?
As an inspector, I have to be extremely aware of the political
climate at all times, because it changes daily from person
[ application ] to person [ application ].......What applies to one
person may not apply to another person, while the application
is exactly the same.......In some areas, this is known as "selective
enforcement"........It is what it is!
As to the OP [ by **cowboyjc** ], I would guess that there are
no significant "carrots" in place for there to be ongoing Continuing
Education enough to want to learn [ How does one encourage
others to want to learn & stay current ? :? ].......I feel your pain
fellow inspector brother, ...I feel your pain!
: - :
IMO, ...when it starts costing significant money, then a significant
increase in learning will occur, ...on both sides of the counter!
This is not a uniform, consistent world, and interpretation of
the various codes; even amongst those who regularly try to stay
current, is an ongoing effort......Harder for some than others.
In some AHJ's, it is not politically correct or agreeable to
place large fines on the contracting community......This type of
[ desired ?? ] activity can get someone fired pretty quickly.
Everyone does not have the same desire to try to learn or even
to stay somewhat current....A carrot [ of some type ] would be
the optimal first choice, rather than a stick......Unfortunately,
"carrots" usually cost money and time to initiate, and in the
short term, most AHJ's do not have the resources [ i.e. - time,
money, personnel, knowledge ] or see the need for "carrots"
to be implemented......It is easier to have a "path of least
resistance" [ meaning, ...little or no enforcement ] of what has
been actually adopted as law in that jurisdiction.........Every day
here, it is a roll of the dice.......Will the contractor [ any of the
trades ] or homeowner actually try to abide by the adopted
codes, or will they just resort to making a telephone call or
two, to not have to comply with the laws [ codes ] ?
As an inspector, I have to be extremely aware of the political
climate at all times, because it changes daily from person
[ application ] to person [ application ].......What applies to one
person may not apply to another person, while the application
is exactly the same.......In some areas, this is known as "selective
enforcement"........It is what it is!
As to the OP [ by **cowboyjc** ], I would guess that there are
no significant "carrots" in place for there to be ongoing Continuing
Education enough to want to learn [ How does one encourage
others to want to learn & stay current ? :? ].......I feel your pain
fellow inspector brother, ...I feel your pain!
: - :
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
What is it they say? "stupid should be painful."
I was ratnting mostly because I hear it a lot here, yelling about when an inspector is wrong and make him quote a code section. What good does it do to quote a code section if they still have a '96 code book in your truck or they don't know that code section anyway?
But to be fair, I called a guy on his receptacle heights (not sure what it says in the ADA, but here in CA it's minimum 15" AFF measured to the bottom of the box for recepts. and maximum 48" AFF measured to the top of the box for swithces), the guy called his buddy over at Los Angeles Building and Safety and that inspector told him that I needed to read what the code said. I did and I was correct and I even gave him copies of the entire code section so that he could read it himself. No one ever said opps, sorry.
north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
: - :
: - :
Unfortunately, that is just part of the job anymore!
: - :
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
On a service upgrade if I have obvious MWBC's, I use DP breakers. What's the reason not to if all new breakers are being installed anyway?
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
: - :
Unfortunately, that is just part of the job anymore!
: - :
Oh I know, it was just one of those days when I started this post. We have the same issues here that you stated, sad which ones get the pass though.
Bad year here as a city, this year alone, new police chief, new city attorny and new city manager as well as a couple of new council people.
north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
$ : $
cowboyjc,
A Hypothetical Situation: You have an U.S. Armed Forces
veteran who has served this country......During their service,
they were trained and performed as an military electrician.
Also, during their service, they were in combat and had both
legs blown off, ...one arm was so badly damaged that it too
had to be removed surgically and replaced with an artificial
limb, but does have mechanical digits that function as fingers,
...their eyesight was partially impaired because of an IED
event, ...their speech and overall mobility were also
significantly impaired.
This electrician; although discharged from Active Duty,
amazingly can still do electrical work; albeit at a much
lower speed, ...but they can still do the work!
Would you [ and others ] cut this guy/gal some slack and
educate them and try to encourage them to do better and
actually learn the various codes, or would you [ and
others ] drop the hammer on them and fine them in to
compliance, ...even after repeated violations?...Remember
now, this a U.S. Armed Forces combat veteran!
What say ye [ and others ]?
The point of this hypothetical story is this: Essentially,
every single person on this Earth is handicapped in one form
or another......Some are handicapped by their physical
conditions, ...some are handicapped by their emotional conditions,
...still, others are handicapped by greed and hatred and
selfishness and "the Me, Me, Me, Me Syndrome", ...and
others are handicapped by their spiritual conditions ?
Starting to see the point ?
Yes, yes, ...I am aware that the various contractors and
inspectors out here are human and we all make mistakes
[ I am at the head of the "making mistakes" line ! ].......IMO,
we inspectors simply have to step up more and educate, educate,
educate, but in a non-abrasive, non-combative manner [ I ain't
quite figured out how to do this yet ].....Afterall, the ONLY
people that we can actually change is ourselves......We all; on
both sides of the counter, have to be models of good inspectors
and contractors.......To actually do this, IMO, ...takes a lot of
continuous effort, compassion and commitment......I am a
continuous work in progress!
$ : $
cowboyjc,
A Hypothetical Situation: You have an U.S. Armed Forces
veteran who has served this country......During their service,
they were trained and performed as an military electrician.
Also, during their service, they were in combat and had both
legs blown off, ...one arm was so badly damaged that it too
had to be removed surgically and replaced with an artificial
limb, but does have mechanical digits that function as fingers,
...their eyesight was partially impaired because of an IED
event, ...their speech and overall mobility were also
significantly impaired.
This electrician; although discharged from Active Duty,
amazingly can still do electrical work; albeit at a much
lower speed, ...but they can still do the work!
Would you [ and others ] cut this guy/gal some slack and
educate them and try to encourage them to do better and
actually learn the various codes, or would you [ and
others ] drop the hammer on them and fine them in to
compliance, ...even after repeated violations?...Remember
now, this a U.S. Armed Forces combat veteran!
What say ye [ and others ]?
The point of this hypothetical story is this: Essentially,
every single person on this Earth is handicapped in one form
or another......Some are handicapped by their physical
conditions, ...some are handicapped by their emotional conditions,
...still, others are handicapped by greed and hatred and
selfishness and "the Me, Me, Me, Me Syndrome", ...and
others are handicapped by their spiritual conditions ?
Starting to see the point ?
Yes, yes, ...I am aware that the various contractors and
inspectors out here are human and we all make mistakes
[ I am at the head of the "making mistakes" line !
].......IMO,we inspectors simply have to step up more and educate, educate,
educate, but in a non-abrasive, non-combative manner [ I ain't
quite figured out how to do this yet ].....Afterall, the ONLY
people that we can actually change is ourselves......We all; on
both sides of the counter, have to be models of good inspectors
and contractors.......To actually do this, IMO, ...takes a lot of
continuous effort, compassion and commitment......I am a
continuous work in progress!
$ : $
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
$ : $
cowboyjc,
A Hypothetical Situation: You have an U.S. Armed Forces
veteran who has served this country......During their service,
they were trained and performed as an military electrician.
Also, during their service, they were in combat and had both
legs blown off, ...one arm was so badly damaged that it too
had to be removed surgically and replaced with an artificial
limb, but does have mechanical digits that function as fingers,
...their eyesight was partially impaired because of an IED
event, ...their speech and overall mobility were also
significantly impaired.
This electrician; although discharged from Active Duty,
amazingly can still do electrical work; albeit at a much
lower speed, ...but they can still do the work!
Would you [ and others ] cut this guy/gal some slack and
educate them and try to encourage them to do better and
actually learn the various codes, or would you [ and
others ] drop the hammer on them and fine them in to
compliance, ...even after repeated violations?...Remember
now, this a U.S. Armed Forces combat veteran!
What say ye [ and others ]?
The point of this hypothetical story is this: Essentially,
every single person on this Earth is handicapped in one form
or another......Some are handicapped by their physical
conditions, ...some are handicapped by their emotional conditions,
...still, others are handicapped by greed and hatred and
selfishness and "the Me, Me, Me, Me Syndrome", ...and
others are handicapped by their spiritual conditions ?
Starting to see the point ?
Yes, yes, ...I am aware that the various contractors and
inspectors out here are human and we all make mistakes
[ I am at the head of the "making mistakes" line !
we inspectors simply have to step up more and educate, educate,
educate, but in a non-abrasive, non-combative manner [ I ain't
quite figured out how to do this yet ].....Afterall, the ONLY
people that we can actually change is ourselves......We all; on
both sides of the counter, have to be models of good inspectors
and contractors.......To actually do this, IMO, ...takes a lot of
continuous effort, compassion and commitment......I am a
continuous work in progress!
$ : $
Great question. So here's my answer (and answers should vary depending on where you are) I may have mentioned in this post that we don't charge for reinspections, we do if we have to go out more than three times for he same thing, but you pretty much get a pass on the first three.
I would take the time to educate him, as I try to for every electrician I meet. When someone says he's never heard that before, I'll cut the slack and explain it to him. It's the guys that want to argue and tell you that's the stupidest thing they've ever heard that don't get much sympathy from me.
We as inspectors have to learn too from the contractors, Green MC cable for medical, rated boxes for fire assemblys that do require seperation, how to identify a fire wall, etc.
I've suggested ways to fix things to electricians and have them stand there and ask why the heck they didn't think of that.
This is not an us against them trade, we're just a second set of eyes. How many times as an inspector have you had a guy tell you that he walked the job three times and he's got it all and the first thing you spot is a violation? I pride myself in being able to spot the violation, but if I don't spot one, I'm just as happy. Easier to sign the job card than to write a correction notice.
I don't know about you other's, but I can't tell you the sense of pride I get when I get a notification that I have a message from this site and it's an electrician from another part of the country asking my opinion on something. Or when someone comes into town and tells me that they've heard about me and that I'm tough, but fair. I can live with that.
Now to get back to something I should have said in the beginning. The wounded vet part shouldn't really come into play as much as you would think. A violation is still going to get a notice, but I may be a little more patient with him. remember, peoples lives and property depend on both of you doing your job right. I learned coaching youth baseball, that you don't do them any good if you don't point out their mistakes, along with giving them a high five and an "atta boy" for a job well done.
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