Insta-Hot and Voltage Drop Solution

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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
So the real question is if the good HWH is operating at 3600 watts and the bad HWH is operating at about 80% of that would the current results of lukewarm water on the bad one be expected?
Chronomite's website (chronomite.com) lists the SR-30L/120 heater as rated for temperature rises of 61F at 0.4 gpm, 33F at 0.75 gpm, and 25F at 1 gpm.

Are these showers some sort of crazy mister unit that only uses 0.4 gpm? If so, the 61F temperature rise could work for a shower, taking 50F water to 110F water. The 20% power reduction would mean a temperature drop of 12F, certainly very noticeable.

A normal shower will be 1.5 gpm to 2 gpm. But suppose they are extra efficient showers at only 1.0 gpm. Then I don't see how a 25F temperature rise lets you have a warm shower. None the less, a 20% power reduction would give you a 5F temperature drop, probably noticeable (I'm guessing).

Understanding the situation would be helped with measurements of flow rate and output temperature at each shower.

Cheers, Wayne
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
According to the plumber the two showers are identical with the exception of the output water temp. The plumbers says that it's an electrical problem and that his HWH is working fine (not sure how he knows this). If we assume everything else is the same (plumbing hardware, input cold water temp, HWH size) then the only noticeable difference between the two is the conductor size.

So the real question is if the good HWH is operating at 3600 watts and the bad HWH is operating at about 80% of that would the current results of lukewarm water on the bad one be expected?
Possibly is just voltage drop - your difference in heat is being lost in the circuit conductors instead of being given up in the heating element. If you only applied 108 volts to the same element you would only draw 27 amps and have 2916 watts, which is about 83% of 3500, but this is what you would have connecting straight to a 108 supply with no VD, you still have the long supply conductors in series and that probably throws us off even more. Getting an actual current measurement as well as input voltage and voltage measured across the heater will be able to tell exactly how much power is given up in the heater.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
I suspect least expensive solution would be to swap out for standard storage tank water heater, electric bill would increase but may take close to the life expectancy of a tankless to break even on cost difference between tank and tankless. And meanwhile, hot water!
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I agree with the others that have pointed out the tremendous power requirement for heating water for a shower, suggesting that something doesn't quite add up to make one shower work and one not. 3600W simply will not heat up much water flow by very many degrees.

In addition to checking the actual voltage and current at the heater that isn't working, I'd look for a wiring error at the one that is working...perhaps it was wired 208V instead of the rated 120V, and with water flow might actually function for a while despite the overload involved.

Since Rob asked about sizing a buck-boost, I'll focus on answering that.

1) While you boost the supply voltage to compensate for voltage drop, this is generally considered a bad idea because the boost is present even when the load is off and the voltage drop goes away. You have to make sure that nothing is damaged by excessive voltage when the load is off.

2) Since transformers work by trading voltage for current, you want to place the transformer _before_ your long wire run. If you put the transformer near the load, then the increased current flow would mean increased voltage drop in the wires, requiring more boost.

3) Since the load is resistive and voltage drop is caused by resistance int he wires, the easiest way to calculate the necessary voltage is to figure out the voltage needed to push the rated current through the series resistance of the wire and the load. For simplicity I approximate the resistance of the wire and the load as constant.

Per Nec Table 8, 10 AWG wire has a resistance of 1.21 ohms per 1000 feet. So your circuit wires have a resistance of 0.484 ohms.

The rated current is 30A, and R=E/I R=120/30 = 4 ohms.

Your total circuit resistance is 4.484 ohms.

You want a current of 30A in this circuit, so you need a supply voltage of 134.5V, and a supply power of 4036W.

(Note: with 120V supply, I get 26.8A through the circuit, 107V at the water heater, and 2860W delivered)

4) The 'trick' to buck-boost transformers (noted post 5) is that you size the transformer for the boosted part of the load, not the whole load. The 'unboosted' portion of the load is supplied directly, bypassing the transformer.

You have a 120V supply, and you need to add 14.5V to it, with 30A of capacity. Unless you get something custom wound, in practice you will get a transformer with a 12V or 16V secondary; pick your poison, slightly too high or slightly too low. This transformer would need about a 480VA rating (secondary current * secondary voltage).

Something like https://www.zoro.com/square-d-transformer-120240vac-1632vac-500va-500sv46b/i/G0734361/ would be suitable.

5) The supply up to the transformer will draw about 34A.

Given that you are looking at about $150 for a transformer to feed a $150 water heater, you might consider replacing the water heater with a similar 240V version. The % voltage drop will be halved, and the rated power will be doubled. With the Chronomite-SR-30-240, and a 240V supply, you would get 226V at the heater and 6400W delivered.

-Jon
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Without looking I suspect that that thing is a point-of-use booster heater- to be fed with already hot water- maybe for a dishwasher.

-Hal

I think it's the shower head with the heater in it. I saw them online somewhere. Line voltage to my shower head is not something I'm eager to test!
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I agree with the others that have pointed out the tremendous power requirement for heating water for a shower, suggesting that something doesn't quite add up to make one shower work and one not. 3600W simply will not heat up much water flow by very many degrees.

In addition to checking the actual voltage and current at the heater that isn't working, I'd look for a wiring error at the one that is working...perhaps it was wired 208V instead of the rated 120V, and with water flow might actually function for a while despite the overload involved.

Since Rob asked about sizing a buck-boost, I'll focus on answering that.

1) While you boost the supply voltage to compensate for voltage drop, this is generally considered a bad idea because the boost is present even when the load is off and the voltage drop goes away. You have to make sure that nothing is damaged by excessive voltage when the load is off.

2) Since transformers work by trading voltage for current, you want to place the transformer _before_ your long wire run. If you put the transformer near the load, then the increased current flow would mean increased voltage drop in the wires, requiring more boost.

3) Since the load is resistive and voltage drop is caused by resistance int he wires, the easiest way to calculate the necessary voltage is to figure out the voltage needed to push the rated current through the series resistance of the wire and the load. For simplicity I approximate the resistance of the wire and the load as constant.

Per Nec Table 8, 10 AWG wire has a resistance of 1.21 ohms per 1000 feet. So your circuit wires have a resistance of 0.484 ohms.

The rated current is 30A, and R=E/I R=120/30 = 4 ohms.

Your total circuit resistance is 4.484 ohms.

You want a current of 30A in this circuit, so you need a supply voltage of 134.5V, and a supply power of 4036W.

(Note: with 120V supply, I get 26.8A through the circuit, 107V at the water heater, and 2860W delivered)

4) The 'trick' to buck-boost transformers (noted post 5) is that you size the transformer for the boosted part of the load, not the whole load. The 'unboosted' portion of the load is supplied directly, bypassing the transformer.

You have a 120V supply, and you need to add 14.5V to it, with 30A of capacity. Unless you get something custom wound, in practice you will get a transformer with a 12V or 16V secondary; pick your poison, slightly too high or slightly too low. This transformer would need about a 480VA rating (secondary current * secondary voltage).

Something like https://www.zoro.com/square-d-transformer-120240vac-1632vac-500va-500sv46b/i/G0734361/ would be suitable.

5) The supply up to the transformer will draw about 34A.

Given that you are looking at about $150 for a transformer to feed a $150 water heater, you might consider replacing the water heater with a similar 240V version. The % voltage drop will be halved, and the rated power will be doubled. With the Chronomite-SR-30-240, and a 240V supply, you would get 226V at the heater and 6400W delivered.

-Jon

Jon, thanks this is what I was looking for, a possible electrical engineering solution to the problem. :cool: In this case installing the buck/boost at the panel end would be much easier.

Regarding the 3600W heater it has only one two-wire connection, 120 volts as stated on the nameplate. I have no idea who specified the heater size or designed this system most likely the plumber.
 

chris1971

Senior Member
Location
Usa
We're looking at a 120 volt, 3600 watt, 30 amp insta-hot water heater for a shower. The 30 amp branch circuit is ~200' and the contractor used #10 conductors. As you may guess the water is not hot making this an insta-luke warm water heater. Would it be possible to use a buck/boost transformer at the shower end to get the voltage up to 120 volts? My quick calculation shows a voltage of ~108 volts at the HWH. If so how would you size the buck/boost trans?

Probably something wrong with the heating element.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Jon, thanks this is what I was looking for, a possible electrical engineering solution to the problem. :cool: In this case installing the buck/boost at the panel end would be much easier.

Please do keep in mind that I only went through the calculations for the boost transformer, not any of the design for the circuit feeding it.

I also want to repeat that adding the boost transformer gives you 25% more heat; if you change the heater to a 240V unit, with the same current rating and same wiring, you get more than 2x the heat.

-Jon
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Jon, thanks this is what I was looking for, a possible electrical engineering solution to the problem. :cool: In this case installing the buck/boost at the panel end would be much easier.

I don't think it is really a solution unless you found away to heat water easier than anyone ever has.
 

chris1971

Senior Member
Location
Usa
Just a thought, are these insta heat water heaters being used as supplemental heat. Is their another source initially heating the water?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Just a thought, are these insta heat water heaters being used as supplemental heat. Is their another source initially heating the water?

No the water is a one pipe cold water supply system and it tees off to the HWH adjacent to the shower.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
We're looking at a 120 volt, 3600 watt, 30 amp insta-hot water heater

Ok, probably should have asked this on page 1.

Do you have the manufacturer and model number for the heater in question so we can look at it's description and specs?

-Hal
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
I just made a little calculator in Excel for kW vs. temp rise vs. GPM.

That unit at 100% efficiency (which they all are close to when they're properly working) will raise 1 GPM by 24 degrees in 1 minute. A shower head is around 2 GPM, but they can vary greatly.

If the person is not getting enough hot water, we know they're running 100% hot water, so they may indeed be putting a flow rate of 2 GPM on it which means it's only going to raise the water temperature by 12 degrees.

How satisfactory is the water coming out the one that works? Is it good and hot?
Do both showers have the same head? Go buy a 0.4 GPM head and problem solved. It would raise that by 62 degrees!
 
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