Interesting option proposed for unique situation

Joe.B

Joe.B

Senior Member
Location
Myrtletown Ca
Occupation
Building Inspector
I have a friend who has a unique scenario, I thought I would see what this group has to say. First, the house:

This is a 40's era house that has no EGC's run throughout the house. The main service has a GES that includes a copper water line per 250.52(A)(1) and two ground rods per (A)(5). At some point a previous owner had "upgraded" all the receptacles in the house to 3-prong without supplying any EGC's, and didn't add any GFCI protection. He wants to "add grounding" by connecting some of the receptacles to the copper water pipes throughout the house, where convenient. This house is not in my jurisdiction, but I was asked for my professional opinion.

First question, is this explicitly permitted by code? I said no, 250.130(C) does not list metallic waterpipes as one of the six options for the replacement of nongrounding receptacles. However, I got to thinking and (C)(1) says "Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50" and 250.50 says "All grounding electrodes as described.... shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system."

The copper water pipes throughout the whole house are all bonded together, does that make them part of the GES? If so, could the copper pipes throughout the house serve as EGC's? Metallic water pipes are not listed in either 250.118 (A) Permitted or (B) Not Permitted. In other words, it's not permitted, but it's also not not permitted...

Second question. I told him that my recommended solution (code approved) to his problem would be per 406.4 (D)(2)(b/c), add some GFCI receptacles. He likes this idea and plans on doing so throughout the house. Here's where it get's interesting. One room of his house is his "music studio" and he's wondering if, in addition to providing GFCI protection, could he also connect to the copper pipes to provide the grounding connection he desires for noise reduction.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
 
Joe.B said:
I have a friend who has a unique scenario, I thought I would see what this group has to say. First, the house:

This is a 40's era house that has no EGC's run throughout the house. The main service has a GES that includes a copper water line per 250.52(A)(1) and two ground rods per (A)(5). At some point a previous owner had "upgraded" all the receptacles in the house to 3-prong without supplying any EGC's, and didn't add any GFCI protection. He wants to "add grounding" by connecting some of the receptacles to the copper water pipes throughout the house, where convenient. This house is not in my jurisdiction, but I was asked for my professional opinion.

First question, is this explicitly permitted by code? I said no, 250.130(C) does not list metallic waterpipes as one of the six options for the replacement of nongrounding receptacles. However, I got to thinking and (C)(1) says "Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50" and 250.50 says "All grounding electrodes as described.... shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system."

The copper water pipes throughout the whole house are all bonded together, does that make them part of the GES? If so, could the copper pipes throughout the house serve as EGC's? Metallic water pipes are not listed in either 250.118 (A) Permitted or (B) Not Permitted. In other words, it's not permitted, but it's also not not permitted...

Second question. I told him that my recommended solution (code approved) to his problem would be per 406.4 (D)(2)(b/c), add some GFCI receptacles. He likes this idea and plans on doing so throughout the house. Here's where it get's interesting. One room of his house is his "music studio" and he's wondering if, in addition to providing GFCI protection, could he also connect to the copper pipes to provide the grounding connection he desires for noise reduction.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I "thought" that using the water pipe for a EGC path was no longer allowed. Because of the use of PVC and PEX.
Been wrong before.
 
IMHO only the first 5 feet of the copper water pipe in the home is considered part of the GES. The cable connection to a water line ground must be made within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the home.

For the music studio they should run a new cable back to the service, with the EGC run in close proximity to the circuit conductors. In addition to the water pipes not being a code compliant EGC, loop area (the space between circuit conductors or between the conductors and the EGC) is a way to turn a circuit into a 'pickup'.
 
winnie said:
IMHO only the first 5 feet of the copper water pipe in the home is considered part of the GES. The cable connection to a water line ground must be made within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the home.
Click to expand...
I agree, and that's why my initial response was a solid "no". My only hesitation was that 250.68(C) is really only discussing connections between grounding electrodes, GEC's, and bonding jumpers. It doesn't describe the GES, and it doesn't explicitly contradict 250.130(C)(1).

I will share with him the concept of "loop area" or "ground loop" and let him go down that rabbit hole. But, if he makes the house code compliant by providing GFCI protection per 406.4(D)(2), would there be a citable violation if he connected the ground terminal on a GFCI receptacle to a copper water pipe?
 
LarryFine said:
Definitely new circuits for A/V and computer systems, etc.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I told him so. He may end up doing that, but he has access to a copper water pipe that's literally inches away from the first outlet in the circuit. He's going to put a GFCI in for safety and code compliance. But in his logical mind why struggle to fish a new set of conductors to that location when he's got such a convenient "conductor" right there?

I've always been an advocate for the "no citation, no violation" rule of thumb. I know it would be better to run a new home run, but if I'm going to tell him it's wrong, I want to back it up with a code citation.

@wwhitney?
 
Oh, and I thought it worth pointing out that his "music room" is more like a rehearsal studio, he's not running sensitive computers and recording equipment, he's a keyboard player. He needs the ground for safety, and wants the ground to clean up the background noise from his amp.
boogieforum.com

Realistic hazards of using ungrounded/unconditioned power?

I was reading through the Roadster manual and it occured to me that every manual for everything electronic I have since I can remember has always specified that you should use clean and well-grounded power. My question is, how bad is it if the power fluctuates and is poorly grounded? I would...
boogieforum.com boogieforum.com
 
If I understand correctly from this post, there are some restrictions to this installation. 1. Metallic water pipes installed throughout the house beyond the service location are not part of the GES.
2. 250.130(C) and 406.4(D) lists many requirements to be followed for replacing the receptacles.

**Not code required. As a licensed contractor, I would look for paths from the basement to the first floor and from the basement to the attic to install some new circuits. I would be surprised if there are many existing circuits to replace or add. This will provide an EGC to those locations.
A house built 90 years ago is not suitable for today, as the existing circuitry and equipment is past its original length of life, hence a potential hazard.
 
Joe.B said:
The copper water pipes throughout the whole house are all bonded together, does that make them part of the GES?
Click to expand...
Back in the 80's or 90's this was allowed, it was also allowed to use any point on a copper water pipe as the bonding for a landline phone protector / DMARC or CATV DMARC. When PVC and pex were on the horizon it was deleted. I have seen Plumbing repairs with PEX and panel/service changes that abandon old ground wires that inadvertently un-grounded DMARCS for old buildings that were grounded this way.
Joe.B said:
But, if he makes the house code compliant by providing GFCI protection per 406.4(D)(2), would there be a citable violation if he connected the ground terminal on a GFCI receptacle to a copper water pipe?
Click to expand...
One thing to consider is the list of things 250.114(3), I'd think that prevails over 406.4(D), so say you have a dedicated space for a fridge, freezer or washer, it appears 250.114 requires a receptacle in those spaces to have a ground wire to be run regardless of 406.4.
 
tortuga said:
One thing to consider is the list of things 250.114(3), I'd think that prevails over 406.4(D), so say you have a dedicated space for a fridge, freezer or washer, it appears 250.114 requires a receptacle in those spaces to have a ground wire to be run regardless of 406.4.
Click to expand...
Yes, very good point for the rest of the house, thank you. I will share this with him. It's something I didn't consider for other locations because I was focused on his "music room" question.

Assuming he does that correctly, do you have a code citation that would prohibit connecting to a water pipe on a receptacle replacement that was allowed by 406.4(D)?
 
@wwhitney suggested that it would probably violate the listing of the GFCI receptacle and therefore would violate 110.3(B).

My gut was telling me this was a violation, but I don't ever want to be that inspector who writes a violation based on nothing substantial or justifiable. Sometimes when you get really deep into something you forget to think about the big picture. And, as is often the case, the violation is right there in the general requirements.

Thank all!
 
Yeah I would probably look the other way, if its GFCI protected that is. You can accidentally equipment ground many ways, I remember clothes washers with a green wire run from them to a pipe. Also record players had a ground screw on the back for ?
Or you could have a old cloth circuit to I don't know say metal box mounted on metal framing and a metal water pipe also attached on that framing, so its all electrically bonded. Old water heater perhaps.
But if I made a electrical installation under a permit and ran a green wire ran open style, not in compliance with 250.130(C), but is identifiable as a EGC per 310.6 / 250.119 and I tried to say this is just a green wire and I am going to screw it on this electrical box I bet an inspector would have my hide.
 
tortuga said:
Yeah I would probably look the other way, if its GFCI protected that is. You can accidentally equipment ground many ways, I remember clothes washers with a green wire run from them to a pipe. Also record players had a ground screw on the back for ?
Or you could have a old cloth circuit to I don't know say metal box mounted on metal framing and a metal water pipe also attached on that framing, so its all electrically bonded. Old water heater perhaps.
But if I made a electrical installation under a permit and ran a green wire ran open style, not in compliance with 250.130(C), but is identifiable as a EGC per 310.6 / 250.119 and I tried to say this is just a green wire and I am going to screw it on this electrical box I bet an inspector would have my hide.
Click to expand...
And I think the inspector would be in the right, but I also think that inspector should be able to provide a citation before they take their pound of flesh.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top