Intresting situation with 3 way switches and junction box mystery

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Ron81

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Location
San Francisco
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Electrician (biggner)
So this family room downstairs in sfr has two 3way switches already. they have power however connected weirdly ( hot wire from power line goes to one of the travellers and red traveller connects to black screw in the switch, allined in similar way in other switch (power out comes from one of the traveller screws), red wire connects to black screw.

pic one - has line cominng and going out 12/3

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pic two at other end only 12/3 wire :
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probably a long time back they had Ceiling light hooked up to it, but now there are no light fixtures on the Ceiling, and those switches are not controlling any receptacles in the room.

whats best way to trace the junction box hiding in ceiling from where I can use power for 6 new recessed lights, as the existing two 3way switches have power and they run from one end of the room to another end.

don't want to break drywall unnecessary, if there are better way to pinpoint the hidden junction box in Ceiling.

tried using the toner, but hard to pin point where exactly the junction box is. i guess i have to trace from second switch which returns the power back to load.

thoughts ?
 
I would measure dead center of the room and hope for the best. The owner should be made aware of the risk.... Worst case scenario is you can blank plate it.

If the toner gets you close to the center mark then go for it at the center mark. I usually will take a long thin screwdriver and poke t up and see if you get lucky
 
Ron81 said:
So this family room downstairs in sfr has two 3way switches already. they have power however connected weirdly ( hot wire from power line goes to one of the travellers and red traveller connects to black screw in the switch, allined in similar way in other switch (power out comes from one of the traveller screws), red wire connects to black screw.

pic one - has line cominng and going out 12/3

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pic two at other end only 12/3 wire :
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New item by Ratnesh Singh

photos.app.goo.gl photos.app.goo.gl

probably a long time back they had Ceiling light hooked up to it, but now there are no light fixtures on the Ceiling, and those switches are not controlling any receptacles in the room.

whats best way to trace the junction box hiding in ceiling from where I can use power for 6 new recessed lights, as the existing two 3way switches have power and they run from one end of the room to another end.

don't want to break drywall unnecessary, if there are better way to pinpoint the hidden junction box in Ceiling.

tried using the toner, but hard to pin point where exactly the junction box is. i guess i have to trace from second switch which returns the power back to load.

thoughts ?
Click to expand...
Is hidden box metallic? If so I would use a magnet to locate box. Is it a smooth ceiling? Might be able to locate patch work with a bright surface light and a keen eye.
 
Here is what I would do.

1) Determine which of the wires come from the breaker. The switch that lands on will not have a conductor going to the load. That cuts out half the wire tracing.

2) Using an ohmeter, determine which wires are actually travelers. They would go switch to switch. The remaining conductor should go the the load.

3) Trace that conductor using whatever means available. I have several means and the situation determines which I will use. For finding wiring issues in walls, I use a circuit tracer. I have found splices inside walls with it. One was just twisted wire, no box, in a fake 'beam'. So I feel your pain.

4) Never say die. The more tenacious you are, the more you will learn. Tracing wires is an art as much as it is a science.
 
Ron81 said:
... probably a long time back they had Ceiling light hooked up to it, but now there are no light fixtures on the Ceiling, and those switches are not controlling any receptacles in the room.
Click to expand...
480sparky said:
First I'd make sure they're not switching any receptacles.
Click to expand...
K8MHZ said:
I was going to suggest the same thing, but adding to check both positions a plug can be inserted. Just in case the switches don't switch the entire receptacle.
Click to expand...
If that doesn't show that the receptacles are being switched, if there aren't too many receptacles it might be worthwhile pulling them to check whether any of them have a third wire in the box that's not connected. It's possible some handyman or homeowner replaced some receptacles but didn't know what to do with a third wire. :rolleyes:
 
synchro said:
If that doesn't show that the receptacles are being switched, if there aren't too many receptacles it might be worthwhile pulling them to check whether any of them have a third wire in the box that's not connected. It's possible some handyman or homeowner replaced some receptacles but didn't know what to do with a third wire. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Or someone installed new receps without breaking any tabs
 
there are three receptacles in the room on same circit, two are on same wall where the 1st switch is. i looked at both : one has three wires coming in and other has two. but they are all direct and hot always, not controlled by either switches (at leat currently )

another wierd thing I noticed is the both 3 way switches are not connected as I expected, fron attached both pics you can see from line, black wire is connected to one of the Traveller point instead of black screw on 3way switch.

what do you think on these connections in the pics, what do you think whats happening here.
the line black wire and the black wire on second switch is always hot (even i unplugged from switch two the second switch black wire is always hot)

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I tried to draw based on what I see in pic 3 above, the question mark is a confusing piece.
 
xformer said:
Is the hidden box metallic? If so I would use a magnet to locate the box. Is it a smooth ceiling? Might be able to locate patchwork with a bright surface light and a keen eye.
Click to expand...
not sure if the junction box is metallic or not, receptacle boxes are plastic.
also, not sure if there is a junction box, the way 3way wires are hooked up in both switches is wired, you can look at the attached pics, not sure why they did this way
 
I would disregard the wire colors for now and use your meter to sort out what each wire is doing.
Take ALL the wires off the receptacles (both) and use your meter as was suggested earlier. First step would be to find the hot, then using the continuity setting, find each traveler, again don't worry about colors, just continuity.
After all these are identified, the other is the load.
 
K8MHZ said:
Here is what I would do.

1) Determine which of the wires come from the breaker. The switch that lands on will not have a conductor going to the load. That cuts out half the wire tracing.

2) Using an ohmeter, determine which wires are actually travelers. They would go switch to switch. The remaining conductor should go the the load.

3) Trace that conductor using whatever means available. I have several means and the situation determines which I will use. For finding wiring issues in walls, I use a circuit tracer. I have found splices inside walls with it. One was just twisted wire, no box, in a fake 'beam'. So I feel your pain.

4) Never say die. The more tenacious you are, the more you will learn. Tracing wires is an art as much as it is a science.
Click to expand...
Great points!
i kind of already followed the steps you mentioned, so what i know is :

- line wire is coming to switch 1.

- conductor and two traveler wires are going out from switch 1 to switch 2.

- I can see at switch 2, red, white and blk wires, BLK is always hot, while red and white gets hot based on switch 2 on/off position

- i am using Klein Tools Tone and Probe PRO Kit - Tone generator and probe to trace the conductor wire, it seems like a black wire from switch 2 is coming to one of the receptacles that have two wires coming in.

- the confusion is : if switch one has two wires (line 12/2 and 12/3) and switch 2 has one wire coming in (12/3) , there should be a load in between and there should be a junction box in between correct? from where they are connecting to load ? thoughts

pics attached if it helps :

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Also, since you (OP) are cutting in recessed lights, I would go ahead and cut the holes and that would give you a way to look in the ceiling for a box or the load wire.
 
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