Intresting situation with 3 way switches and junction box mystery

[hillbilly1]

First I'd make sure they're not switching any receptacles.

I had a homeowner that did not know what a switch did in her parlor room, oh! And by the way, one of the receptacles in there didn’t work. Plugged in a lamp, flipped the switch, magically the receptacle worked! LOL! They had been living in that house for 30 years!

 

[Ron81]

I had a homeowner that did not know what a switch did in her parlor room, oh! And by the way, one of the receptacles in there didn’t work. Plugged in a lamp, flipped the switch, magically the receptacle worked! LOL! They had been living in that house for 30 years!

there are three receptacles in the room on the same circuit, two are on the same wall where the 1st switch is. i opened and looked at both: one has three wires coming in and the other has two. but they are all direct and hot always, not controlled by either switch (at least currently )

may be the three-wire one was or either was controlled by the 3-way switches in the past and prior homeowners had them changed to direct? not sure

just trying to trace the load between these three-way switches, will open the wires and check with the multimeter and see if it tells the story.

since we know at the switch one, 12/2 and 12/3 are coming in and at the other end, only 12/3 > so that boils down to only two scenarios :
1. either load wire leading to receptacles box but not connectd to the outlet (as receptacles are always hot)
2. there must be a junction box hiding in between two switches / or in the ceiling somewhere which was used to connect ceiling light in past (no ceiling light fixture currentlty)

do you think of any other possibility based on what we know so far ?

 

[oldsparky52]

I would disregard the wire colors for now and use your meter to sort out what each wire is doing.
Take ALL the wires off the receptacles (both) and use your meter as was suggested earlier. First step would be to find the hot, then using the continuity setting, find each traveler, again don't worry about colors, just continuity.
After all these are identified, the other is the load.

IMO this is the best approach. Disconnect all the wires in the switch boxes and using your meter (and an extension cord plugged into a known good properly wired receptacle so you have known hot and neutral conductors for testing purposes, a Larry favorite ).

 

[oldsparky52]

Okay I've read all these posts, and I need clarification on what I believe I understand.

My understanding is that switch 1 has a 12/2 and a 12/3 in the box. Switch 2 has a 12/3 only in the box. Is this correct?

 

[Little Bill]

Okay I've read all these posts, and I need clarification on what I believe I understand.

My understanding is that switch 1 has a 12/2 and a 12/3 in the box. Switch 2 has a 12/3 only in the box. Is this correct?

Sounds like power is in the ceiling and both the hot and load are brought down to one switch via a switch loop, the other is a dead end 3-way.

 

[oldsparky52]

Sounds like power is in the ceiling and both the hot and load are brought down to one switch via a switch loop, the other is a dead end 3-way.

Well, if the black and whites on the 3-way are hot/neutral, then it appears he has some version of a California 3-way. I agree that it appears that the 3-wire may not go switch box to switch box.

This is very interesting and I hope the OP keeps us updated.

 

[Little Bill]

Well, if the black and whites on the 3-way are hot/neutral, then it appears he has some version of a California 3-way. I agree that it appears that the 3-wire may not go switch box to switch box.

The 12-3 could still go box to box. He said the first box had a 12-3 and a 12-2 and the 2nd box only had a 12-3. If the power comes in at the light/box (ceiling) you would tie the neutral straight to the load, the hot would tie to the white of the 12-2 down to the first box, the black from the load would tie to the black of the 12-2. Then in that first box, you would tie either the hot or load to one of the wires in the 12-3 and the other two would be the travelers. The white on the 3-way of the OP is probably the hot from the switch loop.

 

[oldsparky52]

The 12-3 could still go box to box. He said the first box had a 12-3 and a 12-2 and the 2nd box only had a 12-3. If the power comes in at the light/box (ceiling) you would tie the neutral straight to the load, the hot would tie to the white of the 12-2 down to the first box, the black from the load would tie to the black of the 12-2. Then in that first box, you would tie either the hot or load to one of the wires in the 12-3 and the other two would be the travelers. The white on the 3-way of the OP is probably the hot from the switch loop.

Both 3-ways have the red conductor on the common of the 3-way, right? If yes, would your setup work like that?

One scenario could be the 12/2 in the 1st box brings in the power, the 12/3 takes a hot, neutral, and the common from the switch (red). The black and whites from the 12/2 and 12/3 connected (color to color) in the 1st box with pigtails to the switch. In the ceiling box, two 12/3 cables, one from each switch box. So the black and white from switch 1 bring in hot/neutral to the ceiling box, are connected to the black/white going to switch 2. The red wires from each switch would go to the light. So you either have a hot/neutral feeding the light (light on), or a neutral/neutral feeding the light (light off) or a hot/hot feeding the light (light off). Completely illegal, but I understand this used to be done. Probably not what's going on but I just like to throw stuff like this out here.

 

[oldsparky52]

So this family room downstairs in sfr has two 3way switches already. they have power however connected weirdly ( hot wire from power line goes to one of the travellers and red traveller connects to black screw in the switch, allined in similar way in other switch (power out comes from one of the traveller screws), red wire connects to black screw.

pic one - has line cominng and going out 12/3

Ron, can you tell us exactly what's connected to what in sw box 1? It sounds like you have a hot on one of the travelers terminals but you did not say what that white on the other traveler is. Is it from the 12/3 only? Is it from a neutral connection? Is it from the 12/2 only (if yes, where is the white from the 12/3 connected)?

I know you are looking for a good way trace the cable, but ... this is very interesting.

 

[Ron81]

Okay I've read all these posts, and I need clarification on what I believe I understand.

My understanding is that switch 1 has a 12/2 and a 12/3 in the box. Switch 2 has a 12/3 only in the box. Is this correct?

Yes sir that's what I see in those two plastic receptacle boxes
also, switch 1 : 12/2 is line coming in always hot.
however switch 2 black wire is always hot too , I disconnected it from receptacle and its hot its part of 12/3 wire.

I haven't disconnected all wires yet, have to see with multimeter..

 

[oldsparky52]

Yes sir that's what I see in those two plastic receptacle boxes
also, switch 1 : 12/2 is line coming in always hot.
however switch 2 black wire is always hot too , I disconnected it from receptacle and its hot its part of 12/3 wire.

I haven't disconnected all wires yet, have to see with multimeter..

Is the white wire in switch 2 always at neutral potential?

 

[Ron81]

Ron, can you tell us exactly what's connected to what in sw box 1? It sounds like you have a hot on one of the travelers terminals but you did not say what that white on the other traveler is. Is it from the 12/3 only? Is it from a neutral connection? Is it from the 12/2 only (if yes, where is the white from the 12/3 connected)?

I know you are looking for a good way trace the cable, but ... this is very interesting.

Both white wires from 12/2 and 12/3 at switch 1 are connected together via wire nut

 

[Ron81]

Is the white wire in switch 2 always at neutral potential?

white wire on switch 2 is connected at traveller point, it gets hot when switch is flipped at switch 2. basically gets power from red to white at sw 2, as long as sw1 is on.

 

[oldsparky52]

white wire on switch 2 is connected at traveller point, it gets hot when switch is flipped at switch 2. basically gets power from red to white at sw 2, as long as sw1 is on.

Is this an assumption from what you think you see or have you used an extension cord and meter to determine this?

 

[hillbilly1]

Sounds like crossed up travelers, technically the white should be hot all the time, connected to the common on switch one, the black should run straight through to switch two, (through the black in the 12-3) and connect to the common there. The red and white in the 12-3 should connect to the traveler screws on both switches. If the 12-2 is going to the outlet, then most likely half or all of the outlet was switched by the three ways at one time.

 

[Ron81]

Is this an assumption from what you think you see or have you used an extension cord and meter to determine this?

checked with live wire tester but not with meter. black wire on switch 2 is always hot, and toner takes me to one of the nearby receptacles when I trace.

 

[oldsparky52]

checked with live wire tester but not with meter. black wire on switch 2 is always hot, and toner takes me to one of the nearby receptacles when I trace.

That black wire is from the 12/3 cable in that box, right? That's the only cable in the box, right?

 

[Ron81]

yes. you are correct

 

[oldsparky52]

This drawing matches what I understand Ron to be telling us. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean someone didn't do it.

Notice switch 1 has a 2 wire and a 3 wire and switch 2 only has a 3 wire and both 3-ways have the red on the common terminal.

 

[LarryFine]

Sounds like crossed up travelers, technically the white should be hot all the time, connected to the common on switch one, the black should run straight through to switch two, (through the black in the 12-3) and connect to the common there. The red and white in the 12-3 should connect to the traveler screws on both switches.

If you really want to get technical, the supply hot should feed the near 3-way box on the white in the 12-2, continue to the common on the far 3-way on the white in the 12-3, back on the black and red as travelers in the 12-3, and the near common on the black in the 12-2 back to the load.