IR equipment

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

elechank

Member
Location
lake villa
I am looking to purchase some IR equipment to check for hot spots on contactors, breakers etc. Does anyone have any leads on equipment that is affordable?

Thanks Hank
 
I was looking for imaging equipment. After looking up some of that equpment on the net I was shcoked at how expensive it is. You're talking up to 50k for one camera. Oh well, we'll see

Hank
 
Depending on your budget, and what you really plan on doing with your camera, there are some budget cameras from good companies for around 7,500.00 to 10,000.00. They are advertised as a little less cost than I have posted, but by the time it is said and done, a new budget camera from a quality seller will cost in the above posted range.
If those cameras do not suit your need and you need more functions than provided in those cameras, you may be in the market for a used camera.
 


If this works, it is a good example of what the camera will do.

Inserting it didn't work, so now I'm attaching it.
 
Ir

Ir

Search FLIR on ebay you can find a nice deal. for a more practical aproach purchase a fluke digital ir thermometer for under a hundred bucks and scan for hot spots the cheapand easy way like I do. you dont even have to take the panel cover offf unless you want to milk the price up.
 
{quote]hot spots the cheap and easy way like I do. you dont even have to take the panel cover offf unless you want to milk the price up.[/quote.

And that is what we call in the IR business a complete and professional job?


There is no problem with using the equipment described, but don't sell it as IR...
 
I checked out a lot of equipment on the web, it's expensive. I might look at rentals for now. I bought a fluke thermometer and I will try that. I do a lot of electrical repait at a large store and I'm trying to sell them on maintenance.

Had to replace a cross phased blown 480/277 contactor that controlled parking lot lighting. I'm wondering if I could have caught that with IR tools.

thanks for the info guys

Hank
 
busman:

Problem is in the commercial world representing a firm as providing IR services and then showing up with a IR thermometer, is misleading. When in today's market a customer request an IR scan they have a fair idea what this requires.

I have been involved in several cases where this has happened the customer was less than happy, and the EC lost a days wages. Additionally these devices are excellent for certain applications, but there is no way you can provide the same quality of service as a firm that utilizes thermal imaging with a hand held non contact thermometer.
 
Brian do you think the Fluke Ti20 would cover all the bases for a typical residential, commercial and industrial client up to category 3?

If not what type of equipment would be good for this application?

Has anyone used Thermo Imagen in residential homes to see were the cold comes in or the heat? such as showing a client that their windows are crap by thermo Imagen. Hope I'm not off topic.
 
khixxx said:
Has anyone used Thermo Imagen in residential homes to see were the cold comes in or the heat? such as showing a client that their windows are crap by thermo Imagen. Hope I'm not off topic.
Click to expand...

I think it would be creative salesmanship to offer the house thermal loss survay as a bonus encitement for the thermal scan of the electrical system.

Don't forget to point out:

Leaky or deteriorating roof,
Missing wall insulation,
Basement pipe portion is about to freeze because of wet insulation,
The cat has an abscess on it's a$$........:D
Etc.
 
retired certified thermographer has good deal

retired certified thermographer has good deal

i have been retired for two years --- and i kind of like it---- and i think i'm gonna stay retired!!! and i have a very high tech camera that i'll make you a deal on. let me educate you about the industry of infrared scanning. i've been in it since 1989, and entered it only to provide additional services to my clients which were high rise office buildings. i did not market this service, but limited it to our client base. we did electrical service work directly to building owners. i purchased a inframetrics 522L camera in 1989 and spent about 36k on the entire system --- extra chargers -- extra cameras -- shipping containers -- extra batteries -- etc... the manufacturer provided a week long training course with the purchase. the class contained about fourty students, but i was very suprised to find out 37 were from the roofing industry? two were from major utility companies ---and then there was me.
needless to say, most of the training was centered around finding roof leaks! i left the class with a good knowledge of the therory of the camera's operation, but learnt the actual electrical scanning end of it on my own. in the first few years we were "too" critical with certain aspects of heat generating items --- and found out --- to mainly concern our efforts on systems and/or equipment important to our clients that could cause interuption of services to their buildings operation. an example would be finding and writing up a report on a two pole breaker feeding a tenant computer room auxillary a/c unit. any circuit breaker that is operating close to 80 per cent load continously is going to look "hot" on a infrared camera. each "report item" requires about a fifteen to twenty minute time period to record and document. the following year we would see the same item at near the same temperture.. and if this breaker went bad it wasn't going to shut the building down, and was the tenant's problem, not the building owner's!

the building's insurance companies recommended schedualled infrared inspections and began to offer a yearly discount to buildings that had their buildings scanned yearly. they did this because they knew that infrared inspections reduce electrical problems drastically provided they are accurate and that follow up repairs are made. along with a copy of the infrared report the building would provide proof that corrective actions were taken. as the insurance companies became more educated to the advantages of infrared inspections the discount amount began to increase. it became a "no brainer" for these buildings to schedual us every year. as an example, the largest building we had was 55 stories and their discount was over 6k a year. we provided them this service for about $3600.00.. you ask "how could you provide this low of a price?". because we were very knowledgable about the building ---we had been doing the scans for ten years. and the building had us do the follow up repairs --- and year to year there were less problems because "infrared works"! if something is engineered correctly and properly installed (torqued) there will be no problems....

now lets talk about cameras. over the years new high tech cameras have been developed and i've tried them---there light --- easy to handle --- and use less power --- but none have the sensitivity that the 522L has. now days infrared contractors require panel covers to be removed --- why --- because their cameras are not sensitive enough. there is a "trade off" for weight and the size of the new cameras. my expieriance tells me to stay with the larger camera. the 522L is actually used in medical fields finding tumors when doctors can't figure out certain problems! we have had buildings call us for a price on "removing and re-installing" panel covers, not knowing that we were certified infrared scanners! we told them we would do the infrared scan cheaper than the cost of removing all the panel covers. you see if there is a loose connection of any amount in example: a main lug panel connection, it will produce enough heat on the installed panel cover for the 522L to see. we would then remove the panel cover and document the problem and re-install the cover. we always used two qualified electricians in the field. same with a bad circuit breaker ---the 522L shows you the problem in heat like your looking through the plastic casing --whether it's internal on the contacts or in the cable terminal connection----this is something the newer cameras couldn't do!!!

when i retired, i had an offer for some business associates to buy my camera and they were going to service some of the buildings we provded this service. we came up with a price of $8800.00 for everything. when i found out their intention was to enter this field without providing qualified infrared camera operators, i backed out of the deal. it has been obvious to me that too many companies offer this service without qualified operators. i have read reports that were so "boggus" it made me laugh!!! but, caused major repair costs to their customer. example: report that the overloads on a one thousand ton chiller were "hot" --- there supposed to be "hot". they were changed --- $1000.00 each and on overtime.. and guess what, they showed me the following year's report and "yep" --they were "hot" again!!! and they changed them again!!! to provide them my camera for this type of operation would be an injustice to my customers... i might be wrong, but i always thought you needed to be able to balance load with heat and an electrician was the best person to determine what degree of load a system is operating at. as i stated before, when something is running at 80 per cent load ---it's gonna be hot---but again this heat should look uniform and to see this you have to have a very sensitive camera. and these areas are most important to building owners because systems operating at 80 per cent are more apt to have problems...

looking back, i am convinced that i should have marketed our infrared services, but i enjoyed the service end of the business too much. and the infrared scanning generated plenty of service work. you must have a good camera that gives you full view of what your looking at plus surrounding areas for you to understand what you are viewing. and you have to be knowledgable about your camera to determine whats happening inside equipment. ever been called to an occupied hotel that is fed by three 3000 amp bus ducts with a problem that the top third of the building is having "brown outs". and you take your camera and follow the bus duct routing which runs across the parking garage and is enclosed in wire lathe and plaster, you come across a warm spot on the plaster. the hotel owners are following you--you point to the ceiling and tell them to open it up!!! sure enough, there's a joint in the bus duct that was never torqued!! and of course the owner say's "looks brand new"! because he can't see the inside... or whats even better, when you find a 4000 amp bus that is going bad at a joint and there is no problem in it's operation -- and it looks nice as new -- and the repair is gonna cost the building fourty grand. they order the replacement bus duct sections and schedual an overtime shutdown and cut into the effected bus---it's a nice feeling to see all the damage caused by the loose connection inside that "nice shiney bus duct surface"...

infrared scanning works --it saves alot of down time and it's becoming a popular preventative maintainance proceedure. if your interested in my equipment and some coaching as needed provided you are interested in providing proper service to this facit of our industry --let me know.
take care, charlie tuna
 
charlie tuna said:
i purchased a inframetrics 522L camera in 1989 and spent about 36k on the entire system --- extra chargers -- extra cameras -- shipping containers -- extra batteries -- etc... the manufacturer provided a week long training course with the purchase.

[snip]
but none have the sensitivity that the 522L has. now days infrared contractors require panel covers to be removed --- why --- because their cameras are not sensitive enough. there is a "trade off" for weight and the size of the new cameras.

charlie tuna
Click to expand...

Charlie,

I would appreciate if you can post some pictures.

Not to doubt your words, but what you are maintaining is impossible with current understanding of infrared physics. You just can't see through solid objects because they block the infrared radiation. Not partially but completely. So much so that even glass has to be special infrared glass to see though.

I would doubt that technology would walk backwards and the current technology would be less capable than past. Size has to do with advancement in electronics and as the result things get smaller, but their capability advances inversely.
 
I first got involved with IR in 1982-1983, Argon gas small display red black image with a polaroid camera for reporting, We have shot quite a few items over the years, building envelopes, roof tops and manufacture drums, boilers, ect...But 99% of our day to day business is electrical...
 
weress--i never said you could see through

weress--i never said you could see through

weress,
the camera only see's heat --the color spectrum is frozen--the heat is seen by the camera in heat in black and white. lets consider a three pole fifty amp -- breaker --like an "I" line unit. if you have this breaker in your hand--there are three sets of contacts that are visible on the line side where the breaker connects to the panel's bus network. the opposite side has three terminals for the load side wire to connect to and they are visible. now, inside the breaker, not visible and factory sealed are the actual breaker's contacts which make and brake the circuit. when looking at this breaker installed and under say a 50 per cent load, you can determine a bad connection in any one of these areas --- consider how very close they are --this is remarkable. say the "B" phase internal contact is loose --- the camera would see this highest heat centered over the contact area of "B" phase and then it would show gradiant lines in small circles around the area -- these gradiant lines are part of the camera's design because you can shift it to a color partern by which the differences temperature degrees can be identified by different colors ---example: (depending on the camera setting) the highest area on the surface of the breaker might be 112 degrees and shown in red---then a similar shaped circle would surround that circle with and inside color of purple indicating 111 degrees---then another circle might be yellow indicating 110 degrees--- then maybe the next circle would be green for 109 degrees and so on-etc.. we never used colors -- we always use white as heat and know what we are looking at. but to discribe this over heated area on the "I" line breaker the heat generated by the poor connection would transmit through the plastic casing....

again, the sensitivity of the camera allows us to scan a panel with the cover on it and determine a problem as discribed above. we would then remove the panel cover and determine the load on the breaker--all phases. this is something expieriance and being knowledgable in the electrical field is necessary (in my oppinion) to determine if this heat is warrented and if it is generated by a loose connection...

i hope i answered your question? tuna
 
charlie tuna said:
weress,
the camera only see's heat --the color spectrum is frozen--the heat is seen by the camera in heat in black and white. lets consider a three pole fifty amp -- breaker --like an "I" line unit. if you have this breaker in your hand--there are three sets of contacts that are visible on the line side where the breaker connects to the panel's bus network. the opposite side has three terminals for the load side wire to connect to and they are visible. now, inside the breaker, not visible and factory sealed are the actual breaker's contacts which make and brake the circuit. when looking at this breaker installed and under say a 50 per cent load, you can determine a bad connection in any one of these areas --- consider how very close they are --this is remarkable. say the "B" phase internal contact is loose --- the camera would see this highest heat centered over the contact area of "B" phase and then it would show gradiant lines in small circles around the area -- these gradiant lines are part of the camera's design because you can shift it to a color partern by which the differences temperature degrees can be identified by different colors ---example: (depending on the camera setting) the highest area on the surface of the breaker might be 112 degrees and shown in red---then a similar shaped circle would surround that circle with and inside color of purple indicating 111 degrees---then another circle might be yellow indicating 110 degrees--- then maybe the next circle would be green for 109 degrees and so on-etc.. we never used colors -- we always use white as heat and know what we are looking at. but to discribe this over heated area on the "I" line breaker the heat generated by the poor connection would transmit through the plastic casing....

again, the sensitivity of the camera allows us to scan a panel with the cover on it and determine a problem as discribed above. we would then remove the panel cover and determine the load on the breaker--all phases. this is something expieriance and being knowledgable in the electrical field is necessary (in my oppinion) to determine if this heat is warrented and if it is generated by a loose connection...

i hope i answered your question? tuna
Click to expand...

Well, it is possible that that is what you wanted to say, but you have stated that the panel cover does not need to be removed with your equipment but that the new ones require the removal of the cover. That is what I disagreed with. You can certainly do an external preliminary scan, but in my experience it had proven to be grossly inadequate because only severe heat problems would show up, usually in later stages of the deterioration process. In early stages the component repair is often feasible and it can be scheduled, while severe damages often result in an immediate or unscheduled shutdown and complete replacement of the components and/or wiring.

I not only agree that the operator needs to have knowledge in the electrical field, but they need to have in-depth understanding of failure modes and component operation.

Another crucial point is that the equipment needs to be tested UNDER load and the current reading needs to be recorded at the time. Historical database is helpful in building a predictive maintenance tool.
 
ir thermometer

ir thermometer

last night the shift supervisor grrabed me and said the mcc cabinet is on fire. I grrabed my fluke and ran up to the cabinet . I was able to find the bucket and saw the temp climbing at an alarming rate. I requested emergency permision to shut don that breaker and prevent a possible huge explosion. 2000 amp 480 bus no ground fault. all for 75 bucks of equipment priceless.
 
based on 16 years of IR inspections

based on 16 years of IR inspections

understand that much of our expieriance in the IR field is also overseen by our service work covering this same equipment. in the beginning(1989) we spent over 50 per cent of our scanning hours on a typical building's branch circuit equipment --- and we did find problems but a very low per centage of the problems!! i would guess less than five per cent (on an average) of the total number of electrical problems were found in the sub panels and breakers. to provide better service to our customers we concentrated our efforts on the high probibilty areas---such as motor control centers --service equipment---mechanical room equipment---elevator machine rooms--- disconnects---emergency power systems. these areas generate most of the infrared problems and more important these are areas that can disrupt building operations.

but we did scan all the equipment --- and there have been times when we found problems inside this equipment---and yes--with the panel cover "on"! in a typical tenant branch circuit panel --the camera can see the surface face of every breaker ---and we have found our share of bad breakers. a bad connection on the breaker's contact to the panels bus will show a hot spot on the metal flash shield near the problem. a connection problem say on the feeder breaker terminal will show on the panel cover. camera sensitivity is the key to this issue. the first time i tried my camera out was at my home --- it was sent out with the camera's focus adjustment turned way out of typical range and i was having problems getting an image on the t.v. screen. finally, i started adjusting the focus and the t.v. screen began to clear---and there were these dots moving about?? i looked at the camera's angle and realized it was aimed at the floor in my living room. the dots were the footprints of my dog walking across the carpet ---and they could be seen for about fourty seconds. that would be the heat from the paw plus some friction applied to the carpet. i have tried about ten cameras over the years and they have improved certain aspects but they were "trade-offs" in sensitivity. and expieriance tells me that camera sensitivity allows the thermographer to see electrical problems in the very early stages. thats the idea of this service --to be able to plan your next electrical problem in advance! i believe i could find plenty of problems with the palm of my hand on the surfaces of electrical equipment. but what about a 4000 amp bus duct running at 75 per cent load ---your looking at the bus duct joint --what would you consider an alarm temperature rise??? two -three-four degrees is alot. and a lug on a 200 amp disconnect loaded at 75 per cent might be normal with a 15 degree rise.. other thermographers share my thoughts on the new cameras.

as i said, we never marketed IR scanning, but entered the field to add additional electrical services to our customer base and it worked for us. we also added the field of metering and power quality investigations to our service. and when we entered this field, there were no schools --we learnt from hands on work. we quickly realized --infrared services doesn't cost--"it pays"!!! providing our services to these buildings for over 25 years gave us a first hand observation of IR scanning and from year to year we found less problems because the building's owners would have us find a solution to any problems we found.
tuna
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top