is a neutral required in a range outlet ?

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goldstar said:
If you're wiring new homes in my area and don't run a 3-wire, you'll fail inspection.
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I find that unlikely, there is no code to cite. If they fail you it is because they are assuming the unit needs a neutral.



I'm guessing the premise is that although the appliance you may be installing in your own home today (in 2010) doesn't require a neutral the appliance you'll be replacing it with when it breaks down will.
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Boy that is some slippery slope, if I install a circuit to anything it may not be adequate in the future.:)
 
iwire said:
I find that unlikely, there is no code to cite. If they fail you it is because they are assuming the unit needs a neutral.

Boy that is some slippery slope, if I install a circuit to anything it may not be adequate in the future.:)
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I guess if you're privilidged enough to know what appliances are being provided then I suppose you could make the argument that a neutral is not required for any specific one(s). However, when the units finally arrive on the job and you come to find that what you were lead to believe is coming to the job actually didn't get shipped to the job and the appliance requires a neutral what do you do then ? I think there are very few appliances that you can be safe with supplying a 240 vac, 2-wire w/ gnd to (and I can't think of any off hand). Any appliance that I know of that has a digital display will require a neutral.
 
I have had a few jobs where the washer and dryer were a straight 240v - no neutral. Being anal, I supplied the standard 10/3 with ground for the dryer and of course, 12/2 for the washer. This particular job would have been a nightmare to have to try and get wiring there at a later date if someone desired.

Even with a gas dryer (we don't see many of them around here) I always run a 10/3 nm with gr. It leaves the owners choices open and not limited.
 
I thought the question here was this?

is a neutral required in a range outlet ?
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The answer to that question has nothing to do with what we think is nice, I assume it has to do with what the NEC requires. :cool:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I have had a few jobs where the washer and dryer were a straight 240v - no neutral. Being anal, I supplied the standard 10/3 with ground for the dryer and of course, 12/2 for the washer. This particular job would have been a nightmare to have to try and get wiring there at a later date if someone desired.

Even with a gas dryer (we don't see many of them around here) I always run a 10/3 nm with gr. It leaves the owners choices open and not limited.
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I have always pulled a 10/3 do the dryer even if gas. The next HO will have electric.

I have always pulled a 6/3 to a range and install a 120v receptacle.

None of this is required.
Are you required to run a neural to a water heater? An air conditioner? A baeboard heater?
 
iwire said:
I thought the question here was this? "Is a neutral required in a range outlet ?"

The answer to that question has nothing to do with what we think is nice, I assume it has to do with what the NEC requires. :cool:
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Bob, there's no need to assume. As much as it pains me to admit it you are 100% correct.

Now, let's think about this scenario - We're both in Town A, I'm wiring house 1 and you're wiring house 2. You run a 2-wire and I run a 3-wire to the respective ranges. The nice inspector stops by house 1 first and passes the inspection then he goes to house 2 and decides that you should have run a 3-wire. You pose your argument knowing that you're correct but now he's not so nice and he decides to shut the job down until he and the DCA come to a decision that you were right after all. Meanwhile 3-4 days have passed and I've already been in Town B, wired up the house and on my way to Town C. You, on the other hand, are on your way to Town B with the strong possibility of having to experience the same crapola all over again.

My point to this is that spending an extra $10 on the 3-wire will guarantee the job gets passed and it leaves the homeowners choices open and not limited (as Dennis pointed out). And you don't have to worry whether the inspector is up on the Code or not.;)
 
iwire said:
The answer to that question has nothing to do with what we think is nice, I assume it has to do with what the NEC requires. :cool:
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This is true but you already answered that question. I don't think you will get much argument on that call. There are times when it may be wise to run the neutral- 99% of the time but it is not required no more then it is required to wire a well pump with a neutral.

About 20 years ago I wired an a/c unit made by Amana, I believe, that required a neutral. Boy was I ticked off when I got there to trim and found this out. I have also seen a split unit a/c (Sanyo) that wired 120V-- I found out the hard way- never thought the unit would require 120v instead of 240v.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
This is true but you already answered that question. I don't think you will get much argument on that call. There are times when it may be wise to run the neutral- 99% of the time but it is not required no more then it is required to wire a well pump with a neutral.

About 20 years ago I wired an a/c unit made by Amana, I believe, that required a neutral. Boy was I ticked off when I got there to trim and found this out. I have also seen a split unit a/c (Sanyo) that wired 120V-- I found out the hard way- never thought the unit would require 120v instead of 240v.
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Bet you always read the entire name plate now:)
 
goldstar said:
None of these have digital displays that require a neutral.
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Right, and if a range did not require a neutral there is no code requirement to provide it.

Have I ever seen a home range that did not need a neutral? Nope. :)

Have I ever not brought a neutral to a home range receptacle? Nope. :)
 
I added range receptacles to a low income housing apartment complex a few years ago. They were replacing gas ranges with electric ranges. All the ranges were 24 inch wide and very basic. I don't recall what the nameplate said for voltage but they had a neutral terminal with nothing attached to it except the neutral in the supply cord that I connected.

I may have been able to connect these without a neutral but chose to use one in case it was needed in the future. If they would happen to buy new range (even a single replacement) in the future it may need a neutral. They also have spare range or two to replace non working unit instead of repairing it in the apartment, having all receptacles the same even if not all ranges are same is desired for this.
 
If you look at electric cooktops and wall mounted ovens with electronic controls none of them use a neutral.
For example here are the specs for a GE induction cooktop:http://products.geappliances.com/Ma...?RequestType=PDF&Name=220593_pp945wmbm_r2.pdf
Here is a link to the complete installation instructions that say the unit does not use a neutral:
http://products.geappliances.com/MarketingObjectRetrieval/Dispatcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=31-10637-3.PDF

I believe if you look at the power supply for your computer you will see 100-240V AC 50/60hz.
Most electronic powers supplys are intelevolt these days, like a lighting ballast.

I think they are using the same controls in a range as the cooktop units, or at least they can.

Also on the 240V heaters note, it is common for them to have electronic controls that run off of 240V.
See:http://www.cadetco.com/show_product.php?prodid=1025
I do not pull a neutral to a heater so it can have an electronic control.

I am not saying start running a 2 wire + ground to a stove in new construction, I will still run a 4 wire until the standard changes.
However there is no logical reason to design a new stove to use a neutral.

In a remodel situation with a 3 wire SE cable with a bare conductor it might be preferable to order a 240 V stove rather than continue using the bare conductor as a neutral/equipment grounding conductor.

The next logical step would be to remove all exceptions for 10-50 and 10-30 receptacles and using a neutral as an equipment grounding conductor from the code. Since a 10-50 receptacle can be converted to a 6-50 and appliances are readily available for the same price that are straight 240.
Appliance manufacturers are driven by the NEC they would catch on quickly and all stoves would just come with a unused terminal for a neutral to land if it is present in the cord (as many do already).
 
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Neutrals to Ranges

Neutrals to Ranges

Great thread here.
I've got a customer switching from a lay-in hard wired unit to a stand alone range. The range is 120/240 volt rated. Her house was built in 1985 so I assume she has a 3 - conductor cable installed. Can I replace the junction box with a 3 - prong receptacle? She plans to have the appliance store install a 3 - prong cord on the range.
Thank you,
 
See 250.140 exception "for existing branch circuits only". I think it will allow you to install a new box and a NEMA 10-50 receptacle, or if your customer can buy a 240 volt range you can install a 6-50.
What you need to look out for is 2 wire SE cable with outer braid used as a neutral in a service converted to a sub panel.
I have found many old range receptacles around here have 2 #8 solid and a #10 neutral in 1" EMT conduit. In that case you can use the conduit as the ECG as per 250.118(4) and install a 14-50. Easy.
 
iwire said:
Have I ever seen a home range that did not need a neutral? Nope. :)
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I believe Wolf makes them. Another case of wiring ahead of time and finding that I had a 6/3 with groung nm cable when all I needed was 6/2 with ground. I guess that is better than the other way round. :)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I believe Wolf makes them. Another case of wiring ahead of time and finding that I had a 6/3 with groung nm cable when all I needed was 6/2 with ground. I guess that is better than the other way round. :)
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I did not mean they do not exist, I only meant what I said .... I have not seen one.:)

The same issues are now happening at dryer locations, some of the new foreign stackables are straight 240.
 
iwire said:
I did not mean they do not exist, I only meant what I said .... I have not seen one.:)

The same issues are now happening at dryer locations, some of the new foreign stackables are straight 240.
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I know that- I am sorry- I did not mean to imply you didn't believe they existed. Just giving some info.

That true about the dyers. In fact I have seen washer dryers where the washer is fed from the dryer circuit.

I think I posted this awhile ago. It is a Bosch w/d. You can see the 240v recep. on the right that is being fed thru the fuses. This unit did not need a neutral. You can see there is a place to tie the neutral but there are no wires coming off it.

ry%3D400
 
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