Is it Single or Two Phase?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Morning Mike, let me answer your questions. :D

Do they make a 120volt to 60volt center tap volt transformer?

Yes

If I has one on a 120 volt circuit and was getting 2 legs of 60 volts each would that make the service a 4 phase?

No

Now I am done, I think. Yea, yea I?m done now.

No! No please just one more.

What would be the outcome if I had a 60 to 30 center tap? Can you see where I am going here?


The same as above and yes.

Now in the spirit of smart's posts, let me describe the points of a circle. We will say the 90? point is 3:00 the 180? point is 6:00 the 270? is 9:00 and 360? is 12:00 and if you use 1.732 as a multiplier or divider you have a 120Y/208 set of windings.

Of course if you were standing at the North or South pole it may be different. ;)

How was that for a bunch of wasted space? :D

Roger
 
Smart $

Smart $

I am taking back all of my bad comments to Smart $. I guess I can relate to someone trying to learn. :)

Sorry Smart $.

Good luck with learning.

-Matt
 
roger said:
Morning Mike, let me answer your questions. :D

Do they make a 120volt to 60volt center tap volt transformer?

Yes

If I has one on a 120 volt circuit and was getting 2 legs of 60 volts each would that make the service a 4 phase?

No

Now I am done, I think. Yea, yea I?m done now.

No! No please just one more.

What would be the outcome if I had a 60 to 30 center tap? Can you see where I am going here?

The same as above and yes.

Now in the spirit of smart's posts, let me describe the points of a circle. We will say the 90? point is 3:00 the 180? point is 6:00 the 270? is 9:00 and 360? is 12:00 and if you use 1.732 as a multiplier or divider you have a 120Y/208 set of windings.

Of course if you were standing at the North or South pole it may be different. ;)

How was that for a bunch of wasted space? :D

Roger

Thank you Roger for clearing that up for me.

I needed that today as I haven?t laughed so hard in a long time.

I do see where Smart is coming from having to explain this in the class room three or four times a year for the past life time.

The simple answer is:
The panel in a dwelling unit is a 240 volt single phase.

What is happening is he is talking about the 120 volt and referring to the 180 degree reference to the center of the 240 volt coil. You know looking first to the left and then turning your head and looking right. The head went 180 degrees but the line of sight is still a straight line.

As Charlie said once, it is like standing in the middle of a highway that runs north and south and watching traffic.
The traffic is going in different directions with one side going north and the other going south but if we are looking straight at the traffic it will always be moving from right to left no matter which lane we are facing.

Another one that I came up with is the tires on my van. Although the van is moving forward the front wheels turn in opposite directions.
Standing on the driver?s side while the wife rolls forward the front tire turns in a counter clockwise direction but when I walk around the van and she rolls forward the front tire turns in a clockwise direction.
How can this be? One tire turning CCW while the other tire turns CW. Looks to me like the van should be going in a circle.

Well I don?t guess I will ever be able to figure this one out!?!
 
Lets say we have a hill with an overall height of 240?.
Now stand halfway up the hill.
How many hills are there?
A) One hill, 240? high.
B) Two hills, one 120? high, and one ?120? high.
 
Hey guys.....did you all know that you can accomplish phase shifts by simply reversing the contacts? I know they didn't teach me that in college, but it must be true, Smart said so.
 
Fundamental Definition

Fundamental Definition

I think I've read the whole series now :D
In the original thread that launched this discussion, I quoted from The IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronics Terms,
Sixth Edition:
(1)(of a periodic phenomenon f(t), for a particular value of t) The fractional part t/P of the period P through which f has advanced relative to an arbitrary origin. Note: The origin is usually taken at the last previous passage through zero from the negative to the positive direction.
(2)(A) A distinct part of a process in which related operations are performed, as in the shift phase of a shift-and-carry operation.(B) A relative measurement that describes the temporal relationship between two signals that have the same frequency.
(3)A major stage within the generating-plant life cycle.
Definition (1) is the one under consideration for this discussion. It supports the crucial element is establishing the reference to a time origin , not a voltage differential.

I'm always surprised when no one seems willing to go back to the "root" definitions in discussions like these.

While many folks have, in fact correctly, identified the concept, they haven't referenced the proper definitions to close debate.
 
rbalex said:
While many folks have, in fact correctly, identified the concept, they haven't referenced the proper definitions to close debate.

I don't think there will be a close.

Some people have their head so buried in the sand there is no digging it out.
 
Temporal: Lasting only for a time; not eternal.

For me, this relates to A, B, and C phases of a generated power signal, and of course they all have the same frequency. These sinusoids are constantly varying over time, thus temporal.

So for the wye configured secondary of a transformer bank, grounded, it is the permanent relationship between the two signals (being 120 degrees apart) which gives us a lets say "208 V" signal.

Thanks for the heads up here, I spoke to quickly.

-Matt
 
temporal
Pronunciation: 'tem-p(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French temporel, from Latin temporalis, from tempor-, tempus time
1 a : of or relating to time as opposed to eternity b : of or relating to earthly life c : lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred : CIVIL <lords temporal>
2 : of or relating to grammatical tense or a distinction of time
3 a : of or relating to time as distinguished from space b : of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time
As you can see temproral relates to time.
 
Last edited:
This thread has become so convoluted, it's tough to recall who is claiming what, so I'd like to address what I think were erroneous assertions:

A. Even if taken from two lines of a 208/120v Y system, the sine wave would be symmetrical, and not lopsided because of what, from the neutral's point of view, would be 120 degrees of timing difference.

2. If measured from one line conductor, the neutral would measure 120v, and the other line would measure 208v. Each would appear as a proper, symmetrical sine wave, unless compared to one another.

D. As I stated differently earlier, a single winding can never contain more than a single phase, even if looking at both ends from the center tap, which could indeed be consdidered 180 degrees apart.
 
explain why please :)

explain why please :)

Larry,

I agree that these statements are a bit off, well maybe quite a bit. But, I think that part of the statements are close. Do you have the time to explain why each one is erroneous?

I think others, including myself might be interested.

Thanks.

-Matt
 
I'll try.

A. I used to have the same problem envisioning how two lines, which peak 120 degrees apart, could possibly have a symmetrical voltage sine wave between them. It seemed that the wave should spend 2/3 of the time with current flow in one direction, and 1/3 of the time in the other.

The reason it doesn't is related to the reason that the line-to-line voltage is less than double the line-to-neutral voltage: the phase angle. If you could somehow "unbend" the 120-degree angle to 180 degrees, the voltage would rise until it hit 240. Of course, that can't happen.

When you add voltages of different phase angles, they add algebraically. 120 at 0 degrees plus 120 at 60 degrees equals 208. It's that simple. If you start at 0,0 on a graph, go one way for 120 divisions, turn 60 degrees and go another 120, the ends wind up being 208 divisions apart. (It's not 120 degrees because of the juxtaposition of the vectors in Y systems vs those of Delta systems.)

If you start at 0,0 on a graph, go one way for 240 divisions, turn 120 degrees either way and go another 240, turn another 120 degrees and go another 240, you're back at the starting point. This is Delta. Leave out the last leg of the journey, and you have open Delta; the starting and end points are still 240 divisions apart.


Okay, dinner time. I'll get to parts 2 and D and try to dig up a couple of images later.
 
Wow, go away to build a little submarine and look what happens.....please forgive me if I am rehashing something that has already been said, or beating a horse that has already been killed; I could only skim.

Smart $, I see your point about the phase angles of the terminals of a delta where one of the secondaries is center tapped, as opposed to a single phase center tapped transformer. I disagree with you, but I see where you are coming from. You also made a point about phase angles and grounding, if I understand it correctly, is inciteful but slightly wrong.

It is a common shorthand to say that the phase terminals of a three phase AC system are 120 degrees apart. But this is only a shorthand, and it leaves implied a little thing known as the reference.

Your cute animated triangle leaves the exact same thing implied. The different colors are intended to represent voltage, and if you look at the animation, you can see that when one terminal is at its positive peak, the negative peak is 'between' the other two terminals. Clearly in this animation the three terminals are 120 degrees apart.

But _voltage_ can never be defined for a single point. Again, you must measure the voltage difference between two points. When say that one terminal of the system is at its positive peak, what you are really saying is that the voltage between the terminal and your reference point is at its positive peak, similarly the negative peak is a measurement between the terminal and the reference point.

Since a voltage measurement requires two points, and phase is a measure of the temporal difference of two different voltage measurements, then at a minimum you need _three_ terminals to determine a phase difference.

So the statement about 120 degree phase difference is somehow implying the reference point. If you were to select _different_ reference points, then you would measure _different_ phase angles. The different phase angles measured with different reference points would be a different descriptions of the same reality; no matter what reference point you use for your calculations, if you asked the question: what was the voltage between any two points in your system, or the phase angle between any three points, you would get the exact same answer.

Consider a three phase delta system with one of the transformers center tapped.
We select as the voltage reference point the 'virtual neutral' between the three phases (this terminal does not exist in a true delta system, but could be derived with a zig-zag transformer).
We select as the phase reference the voltage between phase A and our voltage reference point.
In this case, the phase of terminal A is 0, the phase of terminal B is 120, and the phase of terminal C is 240.
Additionally, if the center tapped transformer is connected A to C, then the phase of the center tap terminal is 300.
If we call the RMS voltage from A to neutral '1', then the voltage from B to neutral is 1, C to neutral is 1, A to C is 1.732, A to center tap is 0.866, and center tap to neutral is 0.5, B to center tap is 1.5

Now consider the exact same system, but make your voltage reference point the center tap, and the phase reference the A to center tap measurement.
In this case, the phase of terminal A is 0, terminal B is 90, and terminal C is 180, and the phase of the center tap is undefined because it is our reference.

Now make terminal B the reference point, and call the voltage from A to B our phase reference. Now the phase of terminal B is undefined, the phase of A is 0, the phase of the center tap is -30, the phase of C is -60, and the phase of B is undefined.

I think this 'relativity' issue is the point that you were making by discussing phase angles changing with grounding; the phase angles of the actual system relative to itself _will not change_, but the phases of the terminals as measured relative to a ground reference will clearly change because you are changing the reference.

Finally a comment for Larry: given any two sine functions of the same frequency but arbitrary amplitude or phase angle, the sum of these two sine functions will be a sine function of the same frequency but different amplitude and phase. If, for example, I had a balanced 360 phase star connected (think generalized wye) system. The phase angle between two 'adjacent' phases would be 1 degree. The voltage between any two phase terminals would be a sine wave, and the magnitude of this voltage would be somewhere between 0 and 2x the phase to neutral voltage.

-Jon
 
Help please!

Help please!

Jon,
I am by no means an expert when it comes to AC theory and or generation theory. However, I have been in this industry for several years and I am having a hard time trying to understand some of your references made below. I have searched to the best of my ability to find some documentation to back up your ideas. I can't find any nor have I ever heard this subject discussed in this manner before. Would you be so kind as to help me and possibly others here to understand your theroies?

winnie said:
It is a common shorthand to say that the phase terminals of a three phase AC system are 120 degrees apart. But this is only a shorthand, and it leaves implied a little thing known as the reference.
Please help me understand this "reference". Is not a circle 360 degrees no matter where it starts and where it ends?

winnie said:
Since a voltage measurement requires two points, and phase is a measure of the temporal difference of two different voltage measurements, then at a minimum you need _three_ terminals to determine a phase difference.
Is not a phase a measure of time? For instance, 120 degrees of 360 degrees is 1/3 of the time or distance traveled in one circle or cycle?

Also, why would one need 3 terminals to determine "phase difference" when "phase difference" is created at the source and we already know on a 3 phase it is 120 degrees regardless of voltage potential?

winnie said:
So the statement about 120 degree phase difference is somehow implying the reference point. If you were to select _different_ reference points, then you would measure _different_ phase angles. The different phase angles measured with different reference points would be a different descriptions of the same reality; no matter what reference point you use for your calculations, if you asked the question: what was the voltage between any two points in your system, or the phase angle between any three points, you would get the exact same answer.
I don't understand how there can be a differebt reference point when the no matter what reference point you deside to use, it is still a 360 degree circle or cycle. Is not a circle a circle no matter who views it and no matter of what time it is?

winnie said:
Consider a three phase delta system with one of the transformers center tapped.
We select as the voltage reference point the 'virtual neutral' between the three phases (this terminal does not exist in a true delta system, but could be derived with a zig-zag transformer).
Please show us a drawing depicting a "virtual neutral" derived from a delta system using a zig-zag transformer. It sounds very interesting and I for one would really like to see how this "virtual neutral" is created.

winnie said:
We select as the phase reference the voltage between phase A and our voltage reference point.
In this case, the phase of terminal A is 0, the phase of terminal B is 120, and the phase of terminal C is 240.
Additionally, if the center tapped transformer is connected A to C, then the phase of the center tap terminal is 300.
If we call the RMS voltage from A to neutral '1', then the voltage from B to neutral is 1, C to neutral is 1, A to C is 1.732, A to center tap is 0.866, and center tap to neutral is 0.5, B to center tap is 1.5

Now consider the exact same system, but make your voltage reference point the center tap, and the phase reference the A to center tap measurement.
In this case, the phase of terminal A is 0, terminal B is 90, and terminal C is 180, and the phase of the center tap is undefined because it is our reference.

Now make terminal B the reference point, and call the voltage from A to B our phase reference. Now the phase of terminal B is undefined, the phase of A is 0, the phase of the center tap is -30, the phase of C is -60, and the phase of B is undefined.
This sounds very interesting but I am having a hard time picturing it. Could you please use this drawing below (or one of your choice) to diagram the above formulae you have set forth. I'm sure I will be able to better comprehend your idea better.

3delta.jpg


winnie said:
I think this 'relativity' issue is the point that you were making by discussing phase angles changing with grounding; the phase angles of the actual system relative to itself _will not change_, but the phases of the terminals as measured relative to a ground reference will clearly change because you are changing the reference.
Well, I for one have no clue as to how phase angles change at all, let alone with grounding! Please provide some documentation as to this event.

winnie said:
Finally a comment for Larry: given any two sine functions of the same frequency but arbitrary amplitude or phase angle, the sum of these two sine functions will be a sine function of the same frequency but different amplitude and phase. If, for example, I had a balanced 360 phase star connected (think generalized wye) system. The phase angle between two 'adjacent' phases would be 1 degree. The voltage between any two phase terminals would be a sine wave, and the magnitude of this voltage would be somewhere between 0 and 2x the phase to neutral voltage.

-Jon

I thought there was 120 degrees difference??
 
Hi Dave,

And now for 3rd year EE circuit theory.

That's a lot of questions. Jon, let me take a bit of the load.

OK. Start with one wire coming from a 3? 60 Hz AC source. It doesn't matter what the source is (generator or transformer), nor does it matter what the source configuration is (delta or wye). But, to start out, imagine the source as the secondaries of the PoCo stepdown wye connected transformers. 4 wire, 120/208 Volt, grounded neutral. Ground is the zero voltage reference.

If, like a bird on an overhead power line, I touch just that one wire with my voltage OR timing measurement device, and nothing else, I can't tell that anything is happening with that wire.

If I had load, I could measure the magnetic field created by the load current. . .but for this discussion, no ammeters allowed, just voltmeters and clocks. Only voltage and time.

Now, if I use my voltmeter to measure between the one wire and ground, I can measure the 120 volt sinusoidal wave, and with the aid of my clock I can time it to measure the frequency as 60 sinusoidal cycles per second, or 60 Hz.

If I measure each wire, in turn, to ground, I can tell they are 120 volt 60 Hz. That's all. I can't tell, by timing of only one voltage measurement at a time, any thing about the timing in relationship to the other two voltages on the other two hot wires.

However, if I keep track of the time between each measurement, as well as the time I spend doing the measurement, I can establish a history time line, placing a zero for the beginning of time (the time reference), and I can measure, in time, the differences between the time of one voltage peak and the next voltage peak.

Look at that last paragraph, again. I just introduced a THIRD measurement point for time, the "beginning of time" reference, that is, the "REFERENCE". This "beginning of time" is comfortably thought of as "before anything else", but for AC circuit theory, it doesn't have to be. The beginning of time measurement in AC circuit theory only has to happen at A time, at a singular time that is the same instant in time for all measurements taken. Given that the PoCo is always running, and I start work at 8 AM today. . .I'll start my "reference" time at, say, 8:15.

I can now tell (using the zero time reference) that the voltage on one hot wire to ground hits a peak one third of a cycle different than the voltage of another hot wire measured to ground.

And, consider that last paragraph. I am now using TWO hot wires and GROUND as I'm considering the voltage. Three points.

Let's go back to measuring the voltage between just two points, the two hot wires. Ground is not included, so the only voltage I can measure is the difference between the two hot wires. Well, I know that it's 208 V, 'cause that's what the bill from the PoCo tells me. . .but that is actually a third reference. . .let's restrict ourselves to just two reference points, that is, the two points touched by the voltmeter probes, the two hot wires. 208 Volts.

When I start the clock, I can tell that the 208 Volts is also 60 sinusoidal cycles per second, or 60 Hz.

I have to reference back to a beginning of time (the time reference) that includes the line to ground voltage measurements before I can tell ANYTHING about the temporal relationship of the voltage line to line to the voltage line to ground.

When I do establish a common time reference for both the line to line and line to ground voltage, I find that the line to line voltage is NOT IN PHASE with the line to ground but, rather, since it is the DIFFERENCE between the two line to ground voltages on two different hot wires, is shifted 30 degrees.

OK. . .I gotta break for meat space concerns.
 
difference

difference

Al,

First, thanks for that great explanation :)

Second, a question. When talking about delta/wye and wye/delta configs., there is always a 30 degree phase shift between high and low side. I am under the impression that the phase is always advanced by 30 deg. on the high side of the xfmr. Is this correct?

I have a copy of Bergen/Vittal 2nd "Power Systems Analysis", and it mentions (p 141 for those of you having a copy) that this is an ANSI/IEEE Standard. I thought the advancement of phase had only to do with the configuration and not the voltage. I must have been wrong.

-Matt
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top