Is it Single or Two Phase?

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The timing is 120 degrees on whatever phase you choose, even if you chose NOT to use the others. That timing is one reason single phase motors struggle across two legs of a Y system.
That is not correct. There is no difference in the sine wave from two legs of a wye system and the sine wave from a single phase system, assuming that you have the same voltage. There is only one sine wave with any two conductors no matter what the source. A single sine wave cannot be out of phase with itself.
Don
 
Two Phase Defined:

Two Phase Defined:

Way too much verbiage for a simple question!

"A two-phase system is an electrical system in which the voltages of the phases are 90 degrees out of time phase..........."

[Kerchner and Corcoran, "Alternating Current Circuits", p 265, John Wiley & Sons, 1955]

Old timers know exactly what is meant by "Two-Phase", and anyone who contends otherwise was born 30 years too late!

A minimum of three wires are required to deliver two-phase service. Two wires can only deliver single-phase. But three wires does not mean the service is two-phase!
 
Just hang in there Rattus, smart will most likely respond with a long winded response to yours. :D

Roger
 
RHaggie said:
I don't care if you only use 2 legs of a 3 phase Y or only one. That is a 3 phase system with the unused phases at zero magnitude- at least at the specific load in question. The timing is 120 degrees on whatever phase you choose, even if you chose NOT to use the others. That timing is one reason single phase motors struggle across two legs of a Y system. The applied voltage- the amount of time the voltage is at the highest magnitude- voltage is lower because the voltage is limping along without a leg, no pun intended.

I believe someone earlier on hit it on the head when they mentioned phase and leg being different animals. When I think phase, I think timezone like we have running north and south across the planet. If you go farther north or south within a time zone (a leg) it may get hotter or colder and even change seasons but, it is the same TIME of day.
I can relate to your analogy using earth's poles and travleing north and south... perhaps the temperature comparison to voltage might be a little off though :)

However, your comparison in my mind is good for single phase or one leg of three-phase. I would liken three phase more to three equidistant points on the equator and the positive peak in the cycle related to high noon each day. Twelve hours later (1/30 of a sec in 60Hz time) would be the negative peak. Zero crossings would be dawn and dusk (roughly... best portrayed when they are exactly twelve hours apart).

Delta%20animation.gif
 
Well Rattus, I was wrong, it wasn't a long winded reply to your post. :D:D

But wait, there's still a chance. :D

Roger
 
rattus said:
Way too much verbiage for a simple question!

"A two-phase system is an electrical system in which the voltages of the phases are 90 degrees out of time phase..........."

[Kerchner and Corcoran, "Alternating Current Circuits", p 265, John Wiley & Sons, 1955]

Old timers know exactly what is meant by "Two-Phase", and anyone who contends otherwise was born 30 years too late!

A minimum of three wires are required to deliver two-phase service. Two wires can only deliver single-phase. But three wires does not mean the service is two-phase!
I'm not contending 240/120 off a center-tapped delta to be the same "Two Phase" the old timers had. I'm saying it's two phase of a differnet [EDIT: different] kind... being 120 degrees out of time phase instead of 90.

It has been stated that voltage across any two hots is single phase (any hot and a neutral for that matter)... and I agree... but that's also true for even the original (old timer's) version of 90-degree-out Two Phase, and it was admittedly a two phase system.
 
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Smart $ said:
I'm saying it's two phase of a differnet kind...

Ohhhhh, I see the problem, you are talking about a differnet (your word) kind of two phase than everyone else is talking about. :rolleyes:

Roger
 
You do need to be careful about what you post around here, don't you? :)


Yes Don, across two legs there is no difference as you point out with the stipulation of the same voltage. That is where the wheels come off in this particular instance when comparing the time elements of an AC system; the resulting voltage can be actually different as it is in common trade practice. In the case of using 2 of 3 phases, that is precisely what happens.

You can take a three phase system, use a single leg to supply single phase loads with absolutely no time shift on that leg and have a higher effective voltage if a single phase 120/240 transformer is installed. That is typical in residential distribution where this thread appeared to originate. Single phase loads across two legs of a 3 phase Y (forgive me for not being proper with the word wye; that takes way too many letters to type) do have the same sine wave but not the same performance because the effective voltage is different- 208 vs. 240 typically. That lower effective voltage is directly tied to the phase angles being asymmetrical- limping along in my previous analogy with two peaks on and one missing every cycle.

My point is- the typical single phase with a neutral is not two phase nor is it two phase when derived from a single leg because the time element-phasing- is not there. In this instance only the magnitude of the voltage is different, not the phasing.

Frankly, I am not clear how you can even get a true (symmetrical) two phase from a 3 phase system, I never really gave two phase much thought before this came up here. Considering this timing thing perhaps two of three phases IS two phase but, I humbly present myself to be educated at all times by everyone here and the questions that my posts might provoke.
I too, do not know all I want to know.

(See how this works Smart$?)
 
With all this talk about center taps and neutral points has my mind bucking phases.

I am so confused now that I can hardly think so would someone help me with a question?

Yes?
Well okay then here I go.
I will need to explain my question a little before I can ask it, okay?

If I have a two ?D? cell flashlight with the batteries stacked in series in the flashlight I would have a three volt light if each ?D? cell is a volt and a half each, Right?

Is this flashlight likening to the coil that has a tap in the center?

Now to the big question that will come in parts as all the questions I have already ask when I said I had ?a? question.

Do they make a 120volt to 60volt center tap volt transformer?

If I has one on a 120 volt circuit and was getting 2 legs of 60 volts each would that make the service a 4 phase?

Now I am done, I think. Yea, yea I?m done now.

No! No please just one more.

What would be the outcome if I had a 60 to 30 center tap? Can you see where I am going here?

Now I?m done asking such silly questions.
 
RHaggie said:
Frankly, I am not clear how you can even get a true (symmetrical) two phase from a 3 phase system, I never really gave two phase much thought before this came up here.

One of the most traditional methods to derive true 2-phase is a Scott connected transformer bank which uses two transformers, another method using three transformers is a Taylor connection.

A very common current application of 2-phase motors is "brushless" servo motors in motion control applications.

For those of you that believe a 120/240 3 -wire system is made up of 2 120V waveforms that are 180 degrees "out of phase" and for proof you show how the two wave forms add together to provide 240V. What about the phase currents? If they are also "out of phase" then they should add in the neutral instead of canceling. Or do you explain this away by saying the currents are "out of phase" with the voltages? And all of this "out of phase" happens simply because we have a center tap on our transformer winding.
 
roger said:
Ohhhhh, I see the problem, you are talking about a differnet (your word) kind of two phase than everyone else is talking about. :rolleyes:

Roger
I beleve I made that kwiut kleer in a poast erly on.
 
Smart $ said:
I beleve I made that kwiut kleer in a poast erly on.

So 'smart who have you helped here?

What good have you done?

The idea of forums like this is the useful exchange of information.

Nothing you have posted in this thread has been;

Clear

Useful

Helpful.

The one thing that is clear is you live up to your member name which should not be a source of pride to you.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Smart,

Often that is the most effective way to make the original poster understand the answer.
Don
Touche! ...was hoping it might be an effective way to help those who don't know the answer to learn a little something in the process. Seems that hope was misplaced.

Regardless, for the purpose of continuing that hope, I will tell you all that the answer is not 0A. So what is the current on the neutral?
 
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LarryFine said:
Mr. $, regardless of how many taps there are on a single transformer winding, it is a single-phase system.
The misconceptions originate in thinking only about one winding, instead of all three and the phase relationships at the ends of that one winding.

LarryFine said:
The only significance of where (if at all) a ground bond connection is made is the voltage-to-earth from any other point.
Quite correct.

LarryFine said:
If one were to ground one end of a 240v center-tapped winding, instead of the typical mid-point (120-0-120), the voltage-to-earth from each point would obviously be different (0-120-240), but it would still be a single-phase system.
Take the last part off (grayed) and your good to go.

LarryFine said:
An oscilloscope, just as with almost every test instrument, must use a reference point when displaying a voltage, since voltage is a potential-difference measurement between two points.
Exactly. You won't see the phase relationship between the three points unless you use a dual channel 'scope.

LarryFine said:
Just because there is a 180-degree timing difference when using a center tap as reference, and not when using one end as a reference, doesn't change whether a system is one phase or two.
But the timing difference between ends has a 120?/240? relationship, not 180?, and the timing difference between center tap and the ends is + and - 60?.
 
From Smart$:

"But the timing difference between ends has a 120?/240? relationship, not 180?, and the timing difference between center tap and the ends is + and - 60?."

Smart, this is nonsense! If you view L1 & L2 of a 120/240V system relative to the neutral on a scope, you will see a separation of 8.33 milliseconds which is half a cycle--180 degrees.

We are looking at ONE phase of a three-phase system. We have no access to the other phases, therefore any reference to three-phase angles is nonsense!

There is no difference, except for load capacity, between the 120/240V service from the poco and the 120/240V service from a single phase portable generator!
 
jwelectric said:
With all this talk about center taps and neutral points has my mind bucking phases.

I am so confused now that I can hardly think so would someone help me with a question?

Yes?
Well okay then here I go.
I will need to explain my question a little before I can ask it, okay?

If I have a two ?D? cell flashlight with the batteries stacked in series in the flashlight I would have a three volt light if each ?D? cell is a volt and a half each, Right?

Is this flashlight likening to the coil that has a tap in the center?

Now to the big question that will come in parts as all the questions I have already ask when I said I had ?a? question.

Do they make a 120volt to 60volt center tap volt transformer?

If I has one on a 120 volt circuit and was getting 2 legs of 60 volts each would that make the service a 4 phase?

Now I am done, I think. Yea, yea I?m done now.

No! No please just one more.

What would be the outcome if I had a 60 to 30 center tap? Can you see where I am going here?

Now I?m done asking such silly questions.

Well I guess these questions are too hard for anyone to answer
 
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