Is Listing and Labeling really required?

[electrofelon]

. I am fine with permits, inspections, even AFCI breakers but stuff like this UL listed every nut bolt and fitting like rain tight EMT fittings drive me bonkers.

Yeah and I don't really have faith in the listing process anyway. They were complicit in the afci scam, the rain tight fitting scam, and countless junk I have to install that's listed, fittings and LBS with sharp edges, it goes on and on.

 

[kwired]

Yeah and I don't really have faith in the listing process anyway. They were complicit in the afci scam, the rain tight fitting scam, and countless junk I have to install that's listed, fittings and LBS with sharp edges, it goes on and on.

I remember an inspector telling story of a laundromat installation he did not like breaker panels in equipment that "faced up". Sounds like it was something common with that equipment, IDK never messed with any of it. He was on a mission to get something done about this, don't know if his efforts eventually succeeded or if others were involved as it sounds like this is no longer allowed as of more recently, this story I heard was back in late 90's or early 2000's and this inspector was teaching his own (on his own on the weekend) CEU classes when he told us about it. From what I recall he did some research on how did this ever get listed, some of what he said was discovered was this aspect was never requested to be evaluated in the listing of that particular equipment. They only test things they are requested to test, especially if there is no general listing requirement for the item itself.

Bottom line - just because an item is listed doesn't mean it is guaranteed safe from any particular hazards, just that it passed either a listing standard that applies to all like items and/or met requested testing topics by whoever requested the evaluation.

One place we all seen this - classified breakers or assemblies that accept multiple product lines for breakers that can be used within them.

Eaton, Schneider, Siemens - don't have their panelboards listed for use with anything other than items they produce for them. If they wanted they could have them evaluated for such, and likely wouldn't necessarily need any modifications necessary for passing that evaluation other than changing of any rejection methods that may be built into their product. Home line in particular has a tab on the bus that doesn't let other brands plug all the way on, will plug most the way on but does inhibit proper cover alignment to some degree.

All those manufacturers however do pay for evaluation of their own versions of classified breakers to fit in competitor panels. They sort of are hard to find as the genuine originals are normally less cost than the classified versions.

 

[Rjryan]

We are having a serious discussion amongst fellow electricians and the question is does the NEC NFPA 70 actually require equipment to be Listed and Labeled? We all assume it did but the NEC is doing a great job of hiding it if it does. Art 110.1,110.2,110.3 tell you all about it but there is other language that makes this less than clear, such as Approved, Identified or Evaluated. After looking very closely at this I'm not as sure as I once was. Can anyone show me where the NEC says equipment must be Listed and Labeled?

I remember an inspector telling story of a laundromat installation he did not like breaker panels in equipment that "faced up". Sounds like it was something common with that equipment, IDK never messed with any of it. He was on a mission to get something done about this, don't know if his efforts eventually succeeded or if others were involved as it sounds like this is no longer allowed as of more recently, this story I heard was back in late 90's or early 2000's and this inspector was teaching his own (on his own on the weekend) CEU classes when he told us about it. From what I recall he did some research on how did this ever get listed, some of what he said was discovered was this aspect was never requested to be evaluated in the listing of that particular equipment. They only test things they are requested to test, especially if there is no general listing requirement for the item itself.

Bottom line - just because an item is listed doesn't mean it is guaranteed safe from any particular hazards, just that it passed either a listing standard that applies to all like items and/or met requested testing topics by whoever requested the evaluation.

One place we all seen this - classified breakers or assemblies that accept multiple product lines for breakers that can be used within them.

Eaton, Schneider, Siemens - don't have their panelboards listed for use with anything other than items they produce for them. If they wanted they could have them evaluated for such, and likely wouldn't necessarily need any modifications necessary for passing that evaluation other than changing of any rejection methods that may be built into their product. Home line in particular has a tab on the bus that doesn't let other brands plug all the way on, will plug most the way on but does inhibit proper cover alignment to some degree.

All those manufacturers however do pay for evaluation of their own versions of classified breakers to fit in competitor panels. They sort of are hard to find as the genuine originals are normally less cost than the classified versions.

 

[Rjryan]

1. . NRTLs:
   The NEC requires certain electrical equipment and materials to be listed by an NRTL.NRTLs are organizations recognized by OSHA to test and certify products to specific safety standards.
   
   
2. 2. Listing Process:
   • Product Submission: Manufacturers submit their products to an NRTL for evaluation.
     
     
   • Design Evaluation: The NRTL assesses the product's design to ensure it aligns with relevant safety standards.
     
     
   • Testing: The product undergoes various tests to check for electrical safety, fire hazards, mechanical stability, and other relevant factors.
     
     
   • Certification: If the product passes all tests, the NRTL issues a listing mark, signifying that it meets the necessary safety requirements.
     
3. 3. NEC Requirements:
   The NEC often mandates that specific products be listed, meaning they must have undergone the NRTL evaluation and certification process.
   
   
4. 4. Listing Mark:
   The listing mark (e.g., UL, ETL) indicates that the product has been evaluated and is considered safe for use as defined by the NEC.
   
   
5. 5. Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ):
   While the NRTL provides the listing, the AHJ (usually an electrical inspector) is responsible for ensuring that the product is installed and used in accordance with the NEC and the listing requirements.
   
   
6. 6. Beyond Safety:
   While listing ensures safety, it doesn't guarantee the product's suitability for every application or its performance capabilities beyond basic safety.

 

[kwired]

1. . NRTLs:
   The NEC requires certain electrical equipment and materials to be listed by an NRTL.NRTLs are organizations recognized by OSHA to test and certify products to specific safety standards.
   
   
2. 2. Listing Process:
   • Product Submission: Manufacturers submit their products to an NRTL for evaluation.
     
     
   • Design Evaluation: The NRTL assesses the product's design to ensure it aligns with relevant safety standards.
     
     
   • Testing: The product undergoes various tests to check for electrical safety, fire hazards, mechanical stability, and other relevant factors.
     
     
   • Certification: If the product passes all tests, the NRTL issues a listing mark, signifying that it meets the necessary safety requirements.
3. 3. NEC Requirements:
   The NEC often mandates that specific products be listed, meaning they must have undergone the NRTL evaluation and certification process.
   
   
4. 4. Listing Mark:
   The listing mark (e.g., UL, ETL) indicates that the product has been evaluated and is considered safe for use as defined by the NEC.
   
   
5. 5. Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ):
   While the NRTL provides the listing, the AHJ (usually an electrical inspector) is responsible for ensuring that the product is installed and used in accordance with the NEC and the listing requirements.
   
   
6. 6. Beyond Safety:
   While listing ensures safety, it doesn't guarantee the product's suitability for every application or its performance capabilities beyond basic safety.

When you have something entirely new, who makes any listing standard associated with it? UL may be involved but likely doesn't come up with the standard entirely on their own. As time goes by and new quirks are discovered related to said product, some changes possibly occur to the listing standard as well, those changes may or may not get initiated by the NRTL.

 

[garbo]

Several times over the years had mostly artist make their own hanging luminaries that they wanted power ran to & installed. Told them they would have to get it approved by the AHJ or higher authority. When they called the Electrical unit at our L & I they told them to contact an approved testing agency like UL They never got back to me which I was glad because even though I had liability insurance rather not run the risk of them over lamping & causing s fire.

 

[electrofelon]

Several times over the years had mostly artist make their own hanging luminaries that they wanted power ran to & installed. Told them they would have to get it approved by the AHJ or higher authority. When they called the Electrical unit at our L & I they told them to contact an approved testing agency like UL They never got back to me which I was glad because even though I had liability insurance rather not run the risk of them over lamping & causing s fire.

A friend got busted once on a final at a house in Seattle for having unlisted luminaires. I think he ended up to swapping them out and then putting them back after inspection.