Is my boss treating me unfairly?

[petersonra]

There is a big difference between a guy being some kind of tradesman and then going on to school and becoming an engineer that trying to take a kid who just graduated from college and make him waste his time learning to be a tradesmen. While there is considerable benefit to having familiarity with how the trades operate, it is not necessary or even really all that desirable for any significant percentage of engineers to spend their time learning a trade.

Having a handful of engineers who used to be in a trade is not a bad thing, might even on the whole be a good thing. But I can't see wasting a lot of time trying to turn engineers into electricians.

 

[Frank DuVal]

An engineer who wants to design projects that work good should know how to do the work! They need to get out in the field and see how and what is built. The electronics engineers do this all the time, they are constantly building and experimenting with actual components. The power side needs the same attention to detail.

There is a big difference between a guy being some kind of tradesman and then going on to school and becoming an engineer that trying to take a kid who just graduated from college and make him waste his time learning to be a tradesmen.

Sure, the first example will be an engineer who can design something that will work from the get-go. the second is an engineer who will drive the electricians and technicians in the field nuts with un-buildable projects!

Learning is NEVER a waste of time.

 

[kwired]

I have not seen that. What I have seen is that people do not want to waste their time on stuff they see as not benefiting their careers. I am inclined to agree with the idea that a college educated engineer really does not need to learn to wire cabinets proficiently, or to run conduit. It's pretty much a waste of his/her talents to spend time learning to be proficient at something he should never be doing. Familiarization with such thigns is a good idea but beyond that it is a waste of time.

What I said goes for all trades/professions though. Young people today are used to getting what they want to some extent. Many get four year degree but can't land the job they want, and won't accept one that is less then what they want. If they went to a trade school they maybe aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. If they have a 4 year degree (in any field) they seem to think they are entitled to an easy job yet one that pays very well and think by default are above entry level positions. Not all are that way but seems to be a lot that are.

 

[gadfly56]

There is a big difference between a guy being some kind of tradesman and then going on to school and becoming an engineer that trying to take a kid who just graduated from college and make him waste his time learning to be a tradesmen. While there is considerable benefit to having familiarity with how the trades operate, it is not necessary or even really all that desirable for any significant percentage of engineers to spend their time learning a trade.

Having a handful of engineers who used to be in a trade is not a bad thing, might even on the whole be a good thing. But I can't see wasting a lot of time trying to turn engineers into electricians.

I'm not sure anyone really wants to do that. What I will say is that if some bright lad or lass in senior year of high school asked my about being an electrical engineer, and they wanted to design the kinds of stuff most folks here install, I would strongly urge them to find an EC to work with over their summers. Do their internships at an MEP firm during the regular school term.

 

[Strathead]

OTOH and IMNSHO, engineers who have worked in the field have a better understanding of how to design things that go together better and more effectively out there. I am a PE, and ten years ago I had to reinvent myself once again; I chose to go into PV systems. I started with installing rooftop systems (in Texas in the summertime) alongside installers half my age and less. Nowadays I sit in front of a computer all day in an air conditioned office designing systems, but I have a much better understanding of what I am requiring of the field guys than I would have otherwise had had I not spent time out there doing it myself.

Respect for that. With your questions and answers here you have another trait that should be considered gold in an engineer. That being to look upon a Master Electrician (skill level not title) as a person with valuable and complementary knowledge and skills who is not a threat and who will make your job better and easier. I have a short list of Electrical Engineers that will pick up the phone and ask me questions. For example, I recently had a conversation with one about how to best direct electricians in a typical detail on the new ASHRAE 90 requirements to switch half of the receptacles in offices. We discussed several design options and his final drawing strongly depicts my suggestions. Why, because he has the brains and he know that I have the hands on experience.

 

[ggunn]

Respect for that. With your questions and answers here you have another trait that should be considered gold in an engineer. That being to look upon a Master Electrician (skill level not title) as a person with valuable and complementary knowledge and skills who is not a threat and who will make your job better and easier. I have a short list of Electrical Engineers that will pick up the phone and ask me questions. For example, I recently had a conversation with one about how to best direct electricians in a typical detail on the new ASHRAE 90 requirements to switch half of the receptacles in offices. We discussed several design options and his final drawing strongly depicts my suggestions. Why, because he has the brains and he know that I have the hands on experience.

Thanks for the kind words. I work very closely with the electricians in my company, and I don't hesitate to ask them when something comes up that's in their wheelhouse. It happens a lot, and they reciprocate.

 

[petersonra]

I'm not sure anyone really wants to do that. What I will say is that if some bright lad or lass in senior year of high school asked my about being an electrical engineer, and they wanted to design the kinds of stuff most folks here install, I would strongly urge them to find an EC to work with over their summers. Do their internships at an MEP firm during the regular school term.

A summer spent as an intern in the field is a reasonable thing IMO. Trying to turn a degreed engineer into an electrician not so much.

 

[ggunn]

A summer spent as an intern in the field is a reasonable thing IMO. Trying to turn a degreed engineer into an electrician not so much.

For the record, I wasn't trying to turn myself into an electrician, but when I moved from semiconductors to solar, there was a lot I had to learn about the trade in order to play well with electricians. BTW, I know of a guy who is both a master electrician and a PE.

 

[Jacob guppy]

Documentation means a written contemporaneous record of time arrived at work and time released from engagement in work activity. A 30 minute (or 60 minute) lunch break is not counted as working time. A 15 minute break every 2 hours is generally counted as work time. Travel time is more complicated. Travel time from home to place of work and back home is called commuting and is not counted as work time, but could be counted if the distance is excessive as agreed upon with the employer. Travel time in a company vehicle or from job to job generally is work time, unless there is a special agreement, such as half pay as travel compensation. A lunch break in a traveling vehicle is a good question....I don't know about that. But I think trying to get paid for the extra hours in the past with weak documentation is a lost cause, ask the labor board if they agree. If you start now keeping careful track of hours, I think the accounting should be given to the employer on a weekly basis. Then the issue will be resolved. If you are terminated - so be it. Working overtime for free is unfair.
Electricians are constantly learning new stuff by observation, reading, etc. I would not worry about the boss saying you should know this already, they should have taught this or that..some people are just complainers.

Thank you this really cleared things up for me. I started tracking my hours this week from the time I arrived at the place he told me to meet until we stopped working. I wasn’t sure if I should do it until I got back to my car or not... so this week I’m at 35 hours and we still have a full day left which fridays are usually 10 hour days.. we also didn’t meet until 9:30 am on one of the days. This assured me that all of the past weeks I’ve worked more than 40 hours.. my question is how do I go about bringing something like this up without making him angry. I understand that it’s my money and he owes it to me but clearly we have established that I am not the best at sticking up for myself considering the situation that I am already in. Any advice would be helpful thank you.

 

[__dan]

Be brief, honest, and to the point. Don't hesitate or put it off. It takes two parties to make a contract.

Everything in electrical is a legal compliance issue. With your worked hours, his other party is the State. The point you need to get to is just understanding the legal requirements and then following them.

You are in the discovery stage of discovering if the boss wants to comply with the law regarding wages and worked hours. So, all of the heavy lifting of making this system as it is now has been done for you. All you need to do learn what the requirements are and comply with them. Discuss with the boss, then with the Labor Dept as necessary.

It's not enforceable but you have a duty to mitigate damages. So don't wait to let it get bigger.

 

[Barbqranch]

I would suggest you email yourself (from your home computer, nothing to do w/ the company) your "timecard" information. Breaks, lunch, start, stop, etc. This will create a contemporaneous record that you many want in the future, and it won't look like you just made it all up at the last minute.

 

[Jacob guppy]

Discuss with the boss, then with the Labor Dept as necessary.

I have heard that doing something like this could give you a bad reputation in a sense. Other jobs might not want to hire someone who has taken legal action against their first electrical boss. Also he could argue that he gives me two 15 minute breaks and a lunch break even though he does not. This would account for the 5 extra hours of work time that I have documented this week. I am not sure if the two 15 minute breaks are paid someone said they generally are but I am not sure how it would be settled when approaching it legally my word against his. I do not want to handle it in that way and would like to simply work it out while in the meantime trying to find another job.

 

[__dan]

I have heard that doing something like this could give you a bad reputation in a sense. Other jobs might not want to hire someone who has taken legal action against their first electrical boss. Also he could argue that he gives me two 15 minute breaks and a lunch break even though he does not. This would account for the 5 extra hours of work time that I have documented this week. I am not sure if the two 15 minute breaks are paid someone said they generally are but I am not sure how it would be settled when approaching it legally my word against his. I do not want to handle it in that way and would like to simply work it out while in the meantime trying to find another job.

Well you're learning a lot in this thread. Two points:

Over the years I've seen a lot of guys who did the schooling but never got the apprenticeship job, and so never got the hours towards the license, guys stocking shelves at G Fox. It's getting worse now and I've got lots of guys tell me they're electricians or do / have done electrical work. They have no clue they're mechanics who work for companies too cheap or unprofessional to hire licensed guys for electrical work and have their mechanics do it. If you want the license you do need the "bona fide" properly documented apprenticeship hours.

Guys ask me about becoming an electrician and I tell them, two years at community college in the right degree program. programming or networking, is probably less effort to get into a better career position moneywise.

I will work for all types of bad characters, except for liars. If someone is bad but honest, you can see it and take steps to protect yourself. You want to discover if the boss is honest or not. If he's honest, you can move forward with him with legal compliance regarding wages and all the rest of it.

If you discover he's a liar, you can either report it possibly resulting in the job loss or try to game the system and take him for what you can at the future parting date (dump the mess in the labor dept's lap when the number is bigger and you have another job to move to). I was always afraid of doing that and becoming that, but it seems there's no one else who shares my concern.

Forget about trying to estimate his future mental state, he will be angry, the job will end. It, the world, simply does not work that way. It is all demand related. If he has paying work he can employ you or some other. If he does not have the paying work, he will never get there by scraping nickels off the employee's payroll obligations (well many have tried and still do, a few get fines and jail). You can either compete with the crooks or join them. It's your choice.

Reporting to the Labor Dept gets easier with practice. You have to start somewhere. It is getting worse and worse, so many are gaming the system for what they can get now.

Mass is booming for electricians I've been told. Find out when you're qualified for UI, unemployment insurance, and what you need to collect.

 

[K8MHZ]

my question is how do I go about bringing something like this up without making him angry.

I doubt there is a way. He sounds like the kind of person that uses that against people. You need to find a new job with a good boss. A good boss can make the worst jobs enjoyable to show up for, and they will always pay you MORE than you worked. It may only be a few minutes here and there, but it's the thought that counts. A good boss will never short you out of money.

 

[ggunn]

I have heard that doing something like this could give you a bad reputation in a sense. Other jobs might not want to hire someone who has taken legal action against their first electrical boss.

There is that. IMO you should decide whether you should stay or go (like the song, eh?) based on what it is and chalk up what is in the past to experience. Can you imagine a scenario where you take him to the mat and prevail, and then continue working for him under better (more friendly) conditions? Judging from what you have written, that doesn't seem likely.

That's not to say that you shouldn't stand up for yourself and try to make things better on your own, but taking him to court (or its equivalent) might not end well for you. Let him know that you know your rights, and don't work when you are not being paid. By all means, do NOT threaten him with legal action if you're not prepared to go through with it; that's like threatening someone with an unloaded gun.

 

[Jamesco]

I have heard that doing something like this could give you a bad reputation in a sense. Other jobs might not want to hire someone who has taken legal action against their first electrical boss. Also he could argue that he gives me two 15 minute breaks and a lunch break even though he does not. This would account for the 5 extra hours of work time that I have documented this week. I am not sure if the two 15 minute breaks are paid someone said they generally are but I am not sure how it would be settled when approaching it legally my word against his. I do not want to handle it in that way and would like to simply work it out while in the meantime trying to find another job.

I would suggest you confront the guy and raise your issues with him. The worst he will do is fire you on the spot. Probably the best time and place is where you first meet in the morning, the start of the day. Or at the end of the day when you are back to where you started the day. I would not recommend you bring it up on the job. Remember the guy is your transportation back to your car.

When I first read your original posted message my thoughts were your boss is an A-hole taking advantage of a young kid fresh out of high school. And that could very well be the case. The guy might be a first rate jerk. If he's cheating you there is a very good chance he is cutting corners and cheating his customers as well.

But before we string the guy up from a tree I need you to go back to the day you first met with the guy and discussed your employment.

Are you 100% sure he said you would be paid hourly @ $11.00 an hour or did he say your pay would be based on a 40 hour work week @ $11.00 an hour?

I am wondering if he is treating you as a salary paid employee and not as an hourly paid employee. Do you remember exactly the conversation when you were first hired?

If salaried no doubt he is getting the better end of the deal, which is usually the case.

IF that is how he hired you, as a salaried employee, he cannot dock your pay if you work less than 40 hours a week. Example a rain out day/s or he is slow on work, he still must pay you for 40 hours. If you show up late or have to leave work early for a personal reason he cannot dock your pay. State labor laws vary for salaried employees. Go on the Net and do a search for your State Government labor department.

Someone asked how you are paid. With a company business check, personal check, cash? If he is a licensed contractor he is required by law to have a federal ID number for tax purposes. Are deductions for taxes taken from your check? State taxes? Federal income taxes? Social Security and Medicare payroll tax deductions? IF the guy is paying you hourly and not paying for hours worked he is also cheating the government out of their share of Tax money. The guy may have problems with the IRS.....

 

[ggunn]

I would suggest you confront the guy and raise your issues with him. The worst he will do is fire you on the spot. Probably the best time and place is where you first meet in the morning, the start of the day. Or at the end of the day when you are back to where you started the day. I would not recommend you bring it up on the job. Remember the guy is your transportation back to your car.

When I first read your original posted message my thoughts were your boss is an A-hole taking advantage of a young kid fresh out of high school. And that could very well be the case. The guy might be a first rate jerk. If he's cheating you there is a very good chance he is cutting corners and cheating his customers as well.

But before we string the guy up from a tree I need you to go back to the day you first met with the guy and discussed your employment.

Are you 100% sure he said you would be paid hourly @ $11.00 an hour or did he say your pay would be based on a 40 hour work week @ $11.00 an hour?

I am wondering if he is treating you as a salary paid employee and not as an hourly paid employee. Do you remember exactly the conversation when you were first hired?

If salaried no doubt he is getting the better end of the deal, which is usually the case.

IF that is how he hired you, as a salaried employee, he cannot dock your pay if you work less than 40 hours a week. Example a rain out day/s or he is slow on work, he still must pay you for 40 hours. If you show up late or have to leave work early for a personal reason he cannot dock your pay. State labor laws vary for salaried employees. Go on the Net and do a search for your State Government labor department.

Someone asked how you are paid. With a company business check, personal check, cash? If he is a licensed contractor he is required by law to have a federal ID number for tax purposes. Are deductions for taxes taken from your check? State taxes? Federal income taxes? Social Security and Medicare payroll tax deductions? IF the guy is paying you hourly and not paying for hours worked he is also cheating the government out of their share of Tax money. The guy may have problems with the IRS.....

All true, especially the part about getting your agreements on payment, hourly or salary, working hours, taxes and social security, etc. straight from the get-go. Get them in writing. If you didn't do that this time and you can't do it now, congratulations, you've had a learning experience.

 

[kwired]

I would suggest you confront the guy and raise your issues with him. The worst he will do is fire you on the spot. Probably the best time and place is where you first meet in the morning, the start of the day. Or at the end of the day when you are back to where you started the day. I would not recommend you bring it up on the job. Remember the guy is your transportation back to your car.

couple years ago I was working on a project in a school that I regularly do work for. They were installing new HVAC system, HVAC contractor was from about 4 hours away, and their guys spent nights in a big camper the boss provided for them and went home on weekends. The owner fired one of the guys - late in the morning one day. This guy rode to area with others in a company vehicle on Monday and had no way home. We seen him hanging around the building talking on his phone for a while after he got told he was fired. Later they saw him downtown when we all went to local cafe for lunch. His boss eventually tracked him down and said he was going home that night and would give him a ride back - bet that was a fun ride for the guy. The boss wasn't a jerk, kind of cocky at times, but was more then fair to his guys on a lot of things - just happened to have enough with this particular guy - who was one of his new guys.

When I first read your original posted message my thoughts were your boss is an A-hole taking advantage of a young kid fresh out of high school. And that could very well be the case. The guy might be a first rate jerk. If he's cheating you there is a very good chance he is cutting corners and cheating his customers as well.

But before we string the guy up from a tree I need you to go back to the day you first met with the guy and discussed your employment.

Are you 100% sure he said you would be paid hourly @ $11.00 an hour or did he say your pay would be based on a 40 hour work week @ $11.00 an hour?

I am wondering if he is treating you as a salary paid employee and not as an hourly paid employee. Do you remember exactly the conversation when you were first hired?

If salaried no doubt he is getting the better end of the deal, which is usually the case.

IF that is how he hired you, as a salaried employee, he cannot dock your pay if you work less than 40 hours a week. Example a rain out day/s or he is slow on work, he still must pay you for 40 hours. If you show up late or have to leave work early for a personal reason he cannot dock your pay. State labor laws vary for salaried employees. Go on the Net and do a search for your State Government labor department.

Someone asked how you are paid. With a company business check, personal check, cash? If he is a licensed contractor he is required by law to have a federal ID number for tax purposes. Are deductions for taxes taken from your check? State taxes? Federal income taxes? Social Security and Medicare payroll tax deductions? IF the guy is paying you hourly and not paying for hours worked he is also cheating the government out of their share of Tax money. The guy may have problems with the IRS.....

Even if he is "salaried" based on a 40 hour work week, when that comes out to around minimum wages - the work needs to stop around 40 hours or get extra pay. If you are paid $100K a year and occasionally put in more then 40 hours that is a huge difference then working for minimum wage x 40 hours but putting in 50 or 60 hours a week.

People are saying it might hurt more to report this guy to labor officials then to just keep at it until he finds another job, or look bad to perspective employers if he quits or is fired. I say to still get out of there ASAP. This guy likely is not going to give you a good reference either way so who cares. If he is doing things wrong and gets fined - mention that if it gets questioned and state that is why you wanted out of that situation. A good employer will understand, if they don't understand maybe you don't want to work for that person either.

An observation I have seen is people that pay cash when they should be putting people on a payroll is they do pay pretty decent "wages" compared to if they were using proper payroll methods. They can pay more then they would with proper payroll because there isn't the overhead expenses of their share of SS taxes, medicare taxes or unemployment taxes or workers compensation insurance. If they have an injury that they can't pay out of their pocket they are likely going to be in trouble though, but is a risk I guess some are willing to take. Usually not too hard to find someone willing to take such jobs though as they will not have that income reported and do take home more pay then with a job that is paid according to the laws. Not trying to condone or condemn this - it just is what it is and it does happen.

 

[ggunn]

couple years ago I was working on a project in a school that I regularly do work for. They were installing new HVAC system, HVAC contractor was from about 4 hours away, and their guys spent nights in a big camper the boss provided for them and went home on weekends. The owner fired one of the guys - late in the morning one day. This guy rode to area with others in a company vehicle on Monday and had no way home. We seen him hanging around the building talking on his phone for a while after he got told he was fired. Later they saw him downtown when we all went to local cafe for lunch. His boss eventually tracked him down and said he was going home that night and would give him a ride back - bet that was a fun ride for the guy. The boss wasn't a jerk, kind of cocky at times, but was more then fair to his guys on a lot of things - just happened to have enough with this particular guy - who was one of his new guys.
Even if he is "salaried" based on a 40 hour work week, when that comes out to around minimum wages - the work needs to stop around 40 hours or get extra pay. If you are paid $100K a year and occasionally put in more then 40 hours that is a huge difference then working for minimum wage x 40 hours but putting in 50 or 60 hours a week.

A couple of things about that...

If you have ever done construction work at a school, you know that the personnel requirements for those jobs are pretty rigorous - background checks, drug testing, contact hours, etc. If a guy is just hanging around alone at a school, that's a problem that needs addressing. Also, salaried positions are looked at differently from hourly jobs by labor boards; there is no overtime pay requirement or limit to working hours that I know of. It may not seem fair to work a low paid salaried employee 60 hours a week but I don't think it's illegal.

People are saying it might hurt more to report this guy to labor officials then to just keep at it until he finds another job, or look bad to perspective employers if he quits or is fired. I say to still get out of there ASAP. This guy likely is not going to give you a good reference either way so who cares. If he is doing things wrong and gets fined - mention that if it gets questioned and state that is why you wanted out of that situation. A good employer will understand, if they don't understand maybe you don't want to work for that person either.

It's not about the reference it's about the reputation. If a guy gets known as litigious, even "good" employers may pass him by without considering the merits of his case.

And a cautionary tale that I have told before...

A guy I know once quit a job he disliked because of his boss, and he used his departure from the company as an opportunity to tell his soon to be ex-boss exactly what he thought of him. Years later he was applying for a job at another company and his prospective employer was passing him around for interviews with managers. His last interview was with the person who would be his new boss. When he was ushered into that manager's office, who do you think it turned out to be?

Right. That old boss that he had reamed on his way out the door years before. Needless to say, he did not get the job.

 

[Strathead]

I said this once before, I think but it is lost in the information. Don't confront him or cite rules until you do your own research and find out exactly what the rules are. For example I said you are entitled to a break, others have said you are entitled to two breaks, I just typed a search in to Google and the official US website https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/breaks says you are not. The rules for the State you are in also likely differ from the federal rules. You need to read the actual rules, don't just listen to any of us and believe it! I am pretty sure everyone who has contributed to this post will agree with that.