Is my proposed wiring practical

[bbeell@live.com]

The neutral wire runs without change from the book view

The neutral wire runs without change from the book view

How is the neutral ran?

What exactly do you mean by "one wire only"? You cannot just run a single hot conductor by itself.

The neutral wire runs without change from the book view. it just runs separate from its cable. it is still spliced
to the cans, but now its past banished cable companions don't have to travel to the cans with it, less splicing,
less work.

The one wire explanation: on each three way switch' not the two traveler wires, but the one wire remaining.
not part of a cable, its a single wire (one wire only).

Time and work are saved because' The neutral still has to route and splice into the four fixtures, but since
the neutral is no longer part of the previous 12/3 cable, the other two wires (travelers) don't have to route
and splice into the four fixture wires.

 

[mlnk]

What do you mean by a single wire not part of a cable? It is never acceptable to have single wires run thru walls or ceilings... they are always inside conduit or inside NM cable. The antiquated knob and tube system used single wires run thru porcelain insulators and loom so the wires did not touch wood, metal, or insulation. When insulation is added to older houses, the k & t must be replaced first.

 

[Daniel malack]

What do you mean by a single wire not part of a cable? It is never acceptable to have single wires run thru walls or ceilings... they are always inside conduit or inside NM cable. The antiquated knob and tube system used single wires run thru porcelain insulators and loom so the wires did not touch wood, metal, or insulation. When insulation is added to older houses, the k & t must be replaced first.

This guy knows what he is talking about!

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[user 100]

The neutral wire runs without change from the book view. it just runs separate from its cable. it is still spliced
to the cans, but now its past banished cable companions don't have to travel to the cans with it, less splicing,
less work.

The one wire explanation: on each three way switch' not the two traveler wires, but the one wire remaining.
not part of a cable, its a single wire (one wire only).

Time and work are saved because' The neutral still has to route and splice into the four fixtures, but since
the neutral is no longer part of the previous 12/3 cable, the other two wires (travelers) don't have to route
and splice into the four fixture wires.

It doesn't add that much work/extra time imo to do the joints in any 3 way setup- we're talking what would be some #14, soft n'easy.....
It shouldn't take no more than 20 seconds from stripping to putting the final tug on the cap to make a splice thats as good as an unbroken section of wire.

Seriously just forget this and do what Dennis Alwon mentioned.

 

[K8MHZ]

Another issue would be the placement of the 2 way dimmer switch ahead of the three way switches.

 

[Daniel malack]

Another issue would be the placement of the 2 way dimmer switch ahead of the three way switches.

You can't separate the travelers in a 2 wire to other switch .by code. Give up the idea. I have never read anywhere in the code and exemption for saving time!

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[kwired]

what Im trying to do is avoid wire nuts and splices of the traveler wires by
going direct from one switch to the other, the wiring in my drawing
accomplishes this. please reply

How is the neutral ran?

What exactly do you mean by "one wire only"? You cannot just run a single hot conductor by itself.

And if you ran two wire cable (grounded and ungrounded) to the first switch, ran three wire cable to second switch, (grounded gets spliced there), then two wire cable to the light(s) you would accomplish your goals and be code compliant. As drawn you apparently have a single ungrounded conductor supplying the first switch and a single grounded conductor returning from the last light.

Some will balk at the 2 - two wire cables between the lights in the first image, but I think 300.3(B)(3) does allow that if it is a non ferrous wiring method.

And why not use a three way dimmer instead of a separate dimmer in series with the three ways? there is a couple more connections there though you seem to want to avoid connections where possible.

 

[Daniel malack]

Never run conductors of a circuit in separate race ways. Let's just apply the code. The people who sit on the code panels are very smart. Apply the code not what you think!

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[Daniel malack]

All of the answer's to all the questions people post should be answered by what the code says. Not by what someone thinks!

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[oldsparky52]

The neutral wire runs without change from the book view. it just runs separate from its cable. it is still spliced
to the cans, but now its past banished cable companions don't have to travel to the cans with it, less splicing,
less work.

The one wire explanation: on each three way switch' not the two traveler wires, but the one wire remaining.
not part of a cable, its a single wire (one wire only).

Time and work are saved because' The neutral still has to route and splice into the four fixtures, but since
the neutral is no longer part of the previous 12/3 cable, the other two wires (travelers) don't have to route
and splice into the four fixture wires.

I don't know where you got that drawing from in your OP, but ..... it's WRONG! Throw it away. Talk to the electrician you are working with and see if he can help you out on this. Study what Dennis put up.

Things to remember, you must have the conductors of a circuit run in the same cable or raceway. The only time you are allowed to not run the neutral with the hot is on a switch leg in that you feed a hot in the cable to a switch and the return (switch leg) is in the same cable as the hot (going back to where the neutral is). This is something you don't seem to understand and you really should talk to the electrician you work with and get him/her to educate you on this principle.

 

[Daniel malack]

I don't know where you got that drawing from in your OP, but ..... it's WRONG! Throw it away. Talk to the electrician you are working with and see if he can help you out on this. Study what Dennis put up.

Things to remember, you must have the conductors of a circuit run in the same cable or raceway. The only time you are allowed to not run the neutral with the hot is on a switch leg in that you feed a hot in the cable to a switch and the return (switch leg) is in the same cable as the hot (going back to where the neutral is). This is something you don't seem to understand and you really should talk to the electrician you work with and get him/her to educate you on this principle.

You can't even run a dead end switch leg anymore in a finished occupied area according to recent codes. I think the code panels are ahead of technology on this one, because alot of new switches require a neutral.

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[oldsparky52]

You can't even run a dead end switch leg anymore in a finished occupied area according to recent codes. I think the code panels are ahead of technology on this one, because alot of new switches require a neutral.

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I forgot about that, but there are exceptions where you might not need to do it (and of course conduit with adequate space would not require you to install it now). I think most people hit the feeds in the switch box instead of the light anyway so that won't matter.

 

[kwired]

I don't know where you got that drawing from in your OP, but ..... it's WRONG! Throw it away. Talk to the electrician you are working with and see if he can help you out on this. Study what Dennis put up.

Things to remember, you must have the conductors of a circuit run in the same cable or raceway. The only time you are allowed to not run the neutral with the hot is on a switch leg in that you feed a hot in the cable to a switch and the return (switch leg) is in the same cable as the hot (going back to where the neutral is). This is something you don't seem to understand and you really should talk to the electrician you work with and get him/her to educate you on this principle.

His hand drawn schematic is somewhat incomplete, but definitely has some things that raise questions. I did mention I think the first drawing can be compliant with 300.3(B)(3).

 

[kwired]

All of the answer's to all the questions people post should be answered by what the code says. Not by what someone thinks!

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Fair enough, where is the code sections in your posts to back your replies up?

 

[JFletcher]

In your drawing, you show a neutral to the lights that appears out of nowhere. You cannot legally use a single wire neutral or borrow a neutral from another circuit to make the circuit work. If this job is being inspected, it should not pass. This is not just a minor NEC code violation imo, it can be a pretty bad safety and fire issue.

There is no reason to do what you propose. Yes, it could possibly save a bit on wire - not a valid reason here given the small scope of the job.

Is anyone else understanding his 'splicing of travelers' argument? The only time you have to splice them is if you are an idiot following some bad/old/obsolete schematics and run them thru the light boxes.

OP, 3 ways can be wired about a half a dozen ways and still work. Some of those ways are illegal (Chicago, Carter 3 way) and have been for a LONG time. Most others are a pita compared to the graphic Dennis linked. Why try to re-invent the wheel?

There's also the matter of if/when your idea doesnt work you'll either have to redo it or hire someone who is going to rip out all of that wiring and run wire like Dennis' graphic.

Be like Dennis.

I hate to be one to crap all over someone's idea, but you've got a dozen other electricians in this thread telling you the same thing as I.

eta: even if the neutral is coming from the 1st 3 way box (hard to tell - the blue dashes dont go down that far, but giving the benefit of the doubt), you cant run it like that. The neutral and hot have to be together the whole way. Plus, even if it were legal, that would involve puling two cables to the lights vs one - doesnt sound easier or like less work to me.

Not trying to be funny (ok, yeah I am): you do know they make 14/3, and it costs little over 14/2, right? Got unfishable titanium walls or something we dont know about?

 

[kwired]

In your drawing, you show a neutral to the lights that appears out of nowhere. You cannot legally use a single wire neutral or borrow a neutral from another circuit to make the circuit work. If this job is being inspected, it should not pass. This is not just a minor NEC code violation imo, it can be a pretty bad safety and fire issue.

There is no reason to do what you propose. Yes, it could possibly save a bit on wire - not a valid reason here given the small scope of the job.

Is anyone else understanding his 'splicing of travelers' argument? The only time you have to splice them is if you are an idiot following some bad/old/obsolete schematics and run them thru the light boxes.

OP, 3 ways can be wired about a half a dozen ways and still work. Some of those ways are illegal (Chicago, Carter 3 way) and have been for a LONG time. Most others are a pita compared to the graphic Dennis linked. Why try to re-invent the wheel?

There's also the matter of if/when your idea doesnt work you'll either have to redo it or hire someone who is going to rip out all of that wiring and run wire like Dennis' graphic.

Be like Dennis.

I hate to be one to crap all over someone's idea, but you've got a dozen other electricians in this thread telling you the same thing as I.

eta: even if the neutral is coming from the 1st 3 way box (hard to tell - the blue dashes dont go down that far, but giving the benefit of the doubt), you cant run it like that. The neutral and hot have to be together the whole way. Plus, even if it were legal, that would involve puling two cables to the lights vs one - doesnt sound easier or like less work to me.

Not trying to be funny (ok, yeah I am): you do know they make 14/3, and it costs little over 14/2, right? Got unfishable titanium walls or something we dont know about?

I agree that it isn't clear where the L1 and N end up - but apparently both are not routed through the switches.

Still may be allowed by 303.3(B)(3) if all boxes are non metallic or have slots between conductor entries, but is going to increase EMF's around this circuit also. Running both source conductors to the first switch, and three wire cable between switches and then two wire cable to the lights is still overall better for EMF's.

 

[JFletcher]

I agree that it isn't clear where the L1 and N end up - but apparently both are not routed through the switches.

Still may be allowed by 303.3(B)(3) if all boxes are non metallic or have slots between conductor entries, but is going to increase EMF's around this circuit also. Running both source conductors to the first switch, and three wire cable between switches and then two wire cable to the lights is still overall better for EMF's.

He has a 2 wire between 3 ways, no way the neutral can be there as both white and black would be travelers. Short of getting really creative (and highly wrong) of using the EGC as a neutral and ground.

300.3(B) does allow NM to have split hot and neutral, but 300.3(A) nixes single conductors, which the original poster has mentioned more than once. I get the feeling he's trying to run a single #14 THHN somewhere.

The title of this thread is "Is my proposed wiring practical", to which the answer is an unequivocal "NO". Will it work? Yes, it will work. Will it be code? Probably not. There's a lot more than 300.3(B) here.

eta: the more I look at the OPs first schematic, the more I think it came out of a Black & Decker home wiring book. There is no one on the planet wiring 3 ways like that these days.

 

[kwired]

He has a 2 wire between 3 ways, no way the neutral can be there as both white and black would be travelers. Short of getting really creative (and highly wrong) of using the EGC as a neutral and ground.

300.3(B) does allow NM to have split hot and neutral, but 300.3(A) nixes single conductors, which the original poster has mentioned more than once. I get the feeling he's trying to run a single #14 THHN somewhere.

The title of this thread is "Is my proposed wiring practical", to which the answer is an unequivocal "NO". Will it work? Yes, it will work. Will it be code? Probably not. There's a lot more than 300.3(B) here.

eta: the more I look at the OPs first schematic, the more I think it came out of a Black & Decker home wiring book. There is no one on the planet wiring 3 ways like that these days.

His first picture (which must have come from elsewhere and is not his idea) I have no problem with as long as it is nonmetallic boxes, both cables enter the same hole in a ferrous box, or there is slots between entries of a ferrous box.

His second drawing does leave some questions at the very least.

ETA: 300.3(A) would nix running a THHN or THWN all by itself, but would not necessarily prohibit running it in a non ferrous raceway or using just one conductor in a nonmetallic sheathed cable.

 

[oldsparky52]

His first picture (which must have come from elsewhere and is not his idea) I have no problem with as long as it is nonmetallic boxes, both cables enter the same hole in a ferrous box, or there is slots between entries of a ferrous box.

OK, I can buy into that, but ... it's still a lame azz way to do it.

 

[hbiss]

This thread reminds me of the time I was working on a residential gut and remodel. I found this single run of TW that went from one switch box, down the hall to another, kind of like what the OP is trying to do. I didn't bother to see what it did because it was all getting ripped out anyway. I found out that the previous owner was an aircraft engineer who apparently did a lot of the electrical when the house was new. Just goes to show, engineers may know the theory to make something work but have no practical experience unless they are related to this trade.

-Hal