is supplementary electrode (rod) required with UFER

[jot30]

Trying to understand if code allows you to eliminate one electrode (rod) if you have a UFER installed. Excerpts are from the 2020 NEC...Some background our utility provider requires a rod at the meter. All our water services are copper and all new residential builds require a UFER. So "present - 250 .50" would be Rod, Water, UFER.
(underlines by me
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required.
A single rod, pipe, or plate electrode shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8). The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to one of the following:
Exception:
If a single rod, pipe, or plate grounding electrode has a resistance to earth of 25 ohms or less, the supplemental electrode shall not be required.
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe.
If used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required.
A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8). If the supplemental electrode is of the rod, pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.53(A).
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode.

So as mentioned, our utility requires a rod at the meter and in reading the code both water and rod type electrodes shall be supplemented by an additional electrode. Question - can the UFER be the additional required electrode for both the rod and water present or is an additional supplemental electrode required for each (water and rod).

 

[wwhitney]

Since the "Ufer" is 250.52(A)(3), it is clearly an "electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8)." So it can serve as the supplemental electrode to a single ground rod and/or to the metal underground water pipe.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jot30]

Since the "Ufer" is 250.52(A)(3), it is clearly an "electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8)." So it can serve as the supplemental electrode to a single ground rod and/or to the metal underground water pipe.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks Wayne...So "and" your interpretation is it can act as the supplemental for both present and utilized - rod "and" pipe.

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks Wayne...So "and" your interpretation is it can act as the supplemental for both present and utilized - rod "and" pipe.

Sure, there's nothing in 250.53 that says a supplemental electrode for one type of electrode can't be the supplemental electrode for another.

And just using common sense, if you have only a Ufer and no ground rods, no water pipe, that suffices. So why would adding a ground rod and a water pipe require you to add a 4th electrode?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

Trying to understand if code allows you to eliminate one electrode (rod) if you have a UFER installed.

You can eliminate all rod electrodes when you have a CEE.

 

[wwhitney]

You can eliminate all rod electrodes when you have a CEE.

OP says "our utility requires a rod at the meter" so that's not going to fly for them. : - )

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

OP says "our utility requires a rod at the meter" so that's not going to fly for them. : - )

Cheers, Wayne

Some POCO's have a similar requirement but the NEC does not. So according to the NEC if you have a CEE, zero rods are required.

 

[wwhitney]

Some POCO's have a similar requirement but the NEC does not. So according to the NEC if you have a CEE, zero rods are required.

But more importantly to the OP, if you have a CEE, then just one rod is also an allowed number of rods for the NEC. So just because the POCO requires at least one rod doesn't mean that you need to add a second rod (when there is a CEE).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[petersonra]

My opinion is that if you have a single rod you have to prove it has a <25 Ohm resistance to earth including whatever else is attached to it such as other electrodes. If it does not meet that criteria, you need two rods, even if you have a cee and are not required to have another GE at all.

 

[infinity]

If it does not meet that criteria, you need two rods, even if you have a cee and are not required to have another GE at all

I agree a single rod would require testing or to be supplemented by another electrode. Can't the CEE be the supplement to the single rod?

 

[wwhitney]

If it does not meet that criteria, you need two rods, even if you have a cee and are not required to have another GE at all.

No, 250.53(A)(2) says that a supplemental electrode may of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8). 250.52(A)(3) is a CEE, so it may be the supplemental electrode. No need to use a ground rod for the supplemental electrode.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jot30]

I agree a single rod would require testing or to be supplemented by another electrode. Can't the CEE be the supplement to the single rod?

That's the part that is confusing...the electrode (rod) required by utility often is greater than 25 ohms

 

[infinity]

That's the part that is confusing...the electrode (rod) required by utility often is greater than 25 ohms

Do they require it to be tested for 25 ohms or less or they don't care?

 

[jot30]

No, 250.53(A)(2) says that a supplemental electrode may of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8). 250.52(A)(3) is a CEE, so it may be the supplemental electrode. No need to use a ground rod for the supplemental electrode.

Cheers, Wayne

So your interpretation is it can act as the supplemental for both present and utilized - rod "and" pipe.

 

[jot30]

So your interpretation is it can act as the supplemental for both present and utilized - rod "and" pipe.

The "additional" is what I want to be sure I'm interpreting correctly

 

[infinity]

The "additional" is what I want to be sure I'm interpreting correctly

Since you have a CEE the rod is not required by the NEC. If you use a rod as an electrode it needs to be supplemented by an additional electrode or tested to be 25 ohms or less. A CEE can be the supplemental electrode for a single, untested rod.

 

[jot30]

Do they require it to be tested for 25 ohms or less or they don't care?

No but NEC requires it to be compliant

 

[LarryFine]

If you have an Ufer, no other electrodes are required, but are allowed.

The metallic water piping system needs to be bonded regardless.

 

[Fred B]

I think simply an UFER does not require any additional electrodes when used, but also any electrodes present must be bonded together with the UFER. So question remains would a rod electrode if present require a second rod as supplement? 250.53(A)(2) suggests that an UFER if present would qualify to supplement another electrode. But if you have a verified UFER why even drive a ground rod in the first place. Most times around here nobody gets the electrician or the inspector in to confirm the presence of a proper UFER before the foundation is completed and wall framing are going up, so technically you wouldn't have an UFER. And by default then have to drive a second rod.

 

[AC\DC]

Since the poco is requiring it and not NEC does this not make it an auxiliary” I think that is the term.

So if power company does not spec anything he’ll you could drive a rebar in ground and and say it’s a rod. Or cut a rod in half. It’s all for fluff