Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

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Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Check out the recent thread "re:TEST". Do you suppose the student is trying to learn how to troubleshoot or trying to memorize answers to test quetions. I know several guys who consider themselves to be journeyman electricians. They have bought study guides for the CA journeymans test. All they are doing is studying questions and trying to learn how to look up basic things in the code book.
BTW the CA test was ridiculously easy.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

JW,

Electron current has been taught for years in the trade schools and military. Engineering schools taught conventional (positive charge flow). Doesn't really matter as long as one understands the difference.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I don?t see how anyone can believe that current flows any other way but from negative to positive.
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So what you're saying is YOU were taught - to +.
I was originally taught + to -.

Was I taught wrong? NO. Like I saud things change. The accepted theory today is - to +. After learning more about the physics of electricity I accepted the - to + but at the same time understand both.

That is the difference between some of the "old" guys and some of the "younger" guys, they don't take the time to learn the difference.

To put it another way-- Some have a JOB, some have a career!
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by tshea:
So what you're saying is YOU were taught - to +.
I was originally taught + to -.

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I was taught in school that electrons flow from negative to positive. In the Air Force, signal (the hole that is filled by the moving electron) flows from positive to negative.

Both are correct.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

In metals, electrons flow.

In n-type semiconductors, electrons flow in the conduction band.

in p-type semiconductors, positive charges, "holes", appear to flow, but electrons are really flowing in the opposite direction in the valence band.

I think it is confusing and misleading to describe electron flow in metals as hole current. The "hole" is really a missing electron in an atom.

Still, as long you have have your polarities right, the results should be the same.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by rattus:
JW,

Electron current has been taught for years in the trade schools and military. Engineering schools taught conventional (positive charge flow). Doesn't really matter as long as one understands the difference.
Click to expand...
I always point out both beliefs of current flow in the theory classes but find it easier for the student to grasp the ? to + theory of flow. I teach them that like charges repel and unlike charges attract. Then I tell them that 6.25 times 10 to the eighteenth power electrons equals? one coulomb then it is hard to say that these are moving from something positive. I use the scenario that all of these electrons are running from each other and in a DC circuit they are running in the same direction at about at the speed of light. They just find each other very repulsive.

For the post I was trying to make a funny for all that that knows both theories. That is why I used this smiley. :D
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I think Peter's 10/80/10 rule is very accurate, and not just in Electrical, but most trades/ professions.
When you look at it in?percentages it makes more sense. The population continues to grow therefore the actual number of people in all 3 of these categories will increase. Yes there are more hacks, and more uneducated workers, but at the same time there are also more of the serious/ professional ones. :)
"Natural Selection" helps weed out the worst of the worst! ;)

Dave
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

In my neck of the woods, the electrical industry, as well as the construction industry as a whole, has turned into a third world country. Here in NC, it has become very popular to hire illegal's because the labor is cheap. I have seen it first hand where a several million dollar job will have 100 electricians, and 98% of them are from "south of the border" and cannot speak a lick of English. This move to cheaper labor has turned our industry into a "throw it up and hope it works mentality". It really breaks my heart, where our own brothers will sacrifice our industry's reputation for a quick buck. This way of thinking by EC owners also effects each and every one of us, those of us in the trade suffer from labor rates being held down, and the economy takes a hit because the money "they" make doesn't stay in America. That my friends adds to inflation.

Sorry so long, but that was my daily rant that has been on my mind for some time..... :mad:
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I'm glad that kind of thing is illegal where I live. Anyone who doesn't hold at least a journeyman license cannot work unless he is supervised by someone who does have such a license, and the supervisor can watch a maximum of two unlicensed people at a time. That means the maximum number of unlicensed people doing electrical work on a job can be no more than 66.6%.

The licensing exam is only offered in English, and you have to have a Social Security number to take it. As a result, an electrical license is still valuable in the marketplace.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Sheldon,
In reading your post,betting we are in same area of N. Carolina.The discription as you have denoted,would be highly accurate.As of this very moment,there ia a Realtor in my dining room discussing the sale of my dwelling,with my wife.

I'll be relocating outside of this state,in a matter of weeks,never to return, or looking back to this area.

God help the future of this craft, Industry as a whole.I'm leaving terminal right now,to sign the paperwork, to exit..

Later,

dillon
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

It's interesting indeed to read everyone's opinion in regard to the trade in which we work. First I know what sheldon_ace and Dillion are talking about. A couple of years ago I moved to Raleigh, NC and I saw that the construction field is being dominated by non English speaking gentlemen there. I'm not talking about cleaning up, landscaping or drywall, I'm talking about electrical, plumbing and heavy equipment. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Please don't quote me on this but I think there is a high concentration of illegals in NC because they (NC) don't require a ss# in order to get a driver's license. I also moved away from NC because of a related issue. I could continue but this is a topic worth it's own thread.

In reference to the state of the new electrical worker, I have some insight. On my way up I was told on a daily basis to get out the trade (Construction in general) by old timers. At first I paid no attention, but after a while I started to understand their concerns. Some quotes I've heard over the years, "Get out of here and into college, you don't want to be climbing up and down ladders when you're 60 years old", "What the hell is wrong with this picture, my father was an electrician and he made more money 20 years ago than what I'm making now", "I'd rather have my son become a beach bumb than become an electrician", "Do you see this, the guy who is spackling the wall is making the same amount as our supervisor", "Look around at these nice houses, do you think any of the owners are electrician's, no", etc. So after hearing this stuff it starts to weigh on you. I did go back to college in'99 and got a two year degree in computer science. However, this degree has not made me a penny because when I graduated in '01, the tech field was in the toilet. I then got my real estate license but decided that sitting in an office all day answering the phone wasn't for me. Finally I decided to get back into the trade and discovered that I truly do like the work regardless of pay, I believe one should enjoy what they do for a living.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Mark,
just so you'll know.

The three of us are talking about, the very same location on the map.

I'm backing out of this thread with my attitude in-tack.

I really don't want for this thread to be lost.

Ya'll have a good day Brothers.. :cool:

[ October 02, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Well guys my point with this thread is that nothing is going down hill, it is business as usual.

You bring up how we 'are now' using low paid foreign help to do the job.

This is normal in construction, think about who really built the transcontinental railroad. (Chinese immigrants)

A couple of posters seem to believe the ethics have diminished.

When the Brooklyn bridge was built a contractor used lower grade steel than spec. for the cables.

My point is that I think we make the past sound like it was all rosy and good when it was no different than today.

People are people and the 10/80/10 applies as much back in 'the good old days' as it does today.

Ryan said it well.

Originally posted by ryan_618:
I'll bet the pyramid builders of ancient Egypt thought the younger generation of pyramid builders were unskilled also.
Click to expand...
JMO, Bob
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Let me say this, the guys who wired my new house in 1959 were knuckle draggers. The boss was an alky. They somehow wired 240V to the washing machine outlet. I discovered this while using a tank type vacuum. Didn't ruin it, but made quite a stink. Another set of daisy chained outlets were dead, wired in a circle. Polarity was wrong one one of the outlets.

The plumbers ran the WH pop-off line into the wall where it ended. They made a couple of bad sweat joints, plumbed the gas range with sweated copper, and installed a buried cutoff valve backward.

I would bet that today's workmen don't do any worse--maybe better. It is about money!
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

as I see it, in the trade today we have two types. electricians and installers. ones who want to learn the trade. and those who are happy running relock the way they are told not knowing why, and the code behind it. and do this for 10 or more years. sadly this what a lot of EC's want. Installers don't go out on ther own.And don't question code with there boss.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

I'll keep my .02 Cents short.

There are most certainly people who do electrical work to pay their bills, then there are those of us who love the work we do. On my crew, there are two "green" helpers, neither of which appear to have a passion for the field, they do the bare minimum, show no interest in learning, and prefer to talk about their highschool football days. My previous green helper was even worse. No care whatsoever for what he did, did not listen, prefered to talk on the phone, and generally knew less than what he should have for his amount of time in.

I have not been in trade long enough to ascertain whether or not things are going down hill. I do know that I have had to correct some of my foremen on what they wanted to do- one with 10 years in wanted to tie a hot leg onto a bare ground in a res. kitchen to feed power to a switch box. I had another foreman purposely bury a junction box in a wall per request of the GC. Something I told the GC I would not do due to the code violation, so he found someone else in the company willing to do it.

Inconclusion- The problem exists on both the supposed experienced side and on the new people to the trade, IMO


Mike.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by apuat:
I had another foreman purposely bury a junction box in a wall per request of the GC. Something I told the GC I would not do due to the code violation, so he found someone else in the company willing to do it.
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I'd make a note of the location and let the electrical inspector know about it.

I run into inconvenient j-boxes from time to time, but I either run new wires and eliminate the need for the j-box, or I put on a cover plate. No one in my company will bury a j-box because I'm a one-man shop! :D
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Hey Mike, your stories reminded me of a good one that happened a few years ago, before I took a real interest in the trade. I was checking out the main panel in house we had just trimmed out and noticed that someone had hooked both legs of a 14/3 to the same line. The guy in charge on this job walked in and I asked him who finished the panel. I was shocked to hear him say that he did. I asked him why he did what he did and he responded that there was nothing wrong with it. I explained to him why it should not be and that he should fix it. He just said he does it all the time and walked away.
 
Re: Is The Skill and Training Really Going Down Hill?

Originally posted by wyatt:
as I see it, in the trade today we have two types. electricians and installers. ones who want to learn the trade. and those who are happy running relock the way they are told not knowing why, and the code behind it. and do this for 10 or more years. sadly this what a lot of EC's want. Installers don't go out on ther own.And don't question code with there boss.
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With over 30 years in trade I say this is the biggest issue.Installers and electricians.To some company owners the difference is minisqual.What they want is bottom line $$$$$
Who here was in the 80`s construction flop?
Installers have been around for along time.When I started in this trade There were helpers.mechanics and electricians. Helper for no less than 5 years some slipped with 4 under thier belt(depended who you knew ) and mechanic for 3 more then a journeyman.
Today There is quite a different view on things.The old way has taken 2 year helpers to the journey status.What the problem ,so I got old employers to doctor my required years in trade or they doctor them after being signed :eek:
 
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