Issue wiring a 6-lead single phase motor to an 8-pin control relay

[Little Bill]

Please give posters time to reply instead of posting the same thing twice.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Thank you for your answer. However, I am confused because the wiring diagram on the motor's nameplate stipulates that, for low voltage, to also connect (blue+orange +red) and (black+yellow+white) respectively TOGETHER. To me your answer seems to insinuate that the red white wire should be connected to 514 and the black wire to 515, but separately. Am I mistaken in my interpretation of the wiring in the nameplate?

Tulsa Electrician is correct, but I will let him explain so as to not confuse his answer. The way you have it wired, when CR507 is energized, it creates a dead short between 513 and 2W. This causes the breaker to trip and blow your fuse.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Tulsa Electrician is correct, but I will let him explain so as to not confuse his answer. The way you have it wired, when CR507 is energized, it creates a dead short between 513 and 2W. This causes the breaker to trip and blow your fuse.

Feel free to add what ever you would like. Not an issue withe. The goal is to help a brother out.

With a different voltage you just change a few things to make work.

Since it 115 volt it will work with what you have. When I have time I will give you the wiring for the higher voltage. Other feel free to explain of you would like to.

I'm short 230 versus 115.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Thank you for your answer. However, I am confused because the wiring diagram on the motor's nameplate stipulates that, for low voltage, to also connect (blue+orange +red) and (black+yellow+white) respectively TOGETHER. To me your answer seems to insinuate that the red white wire should be connected to 514 and the black wire to 515, but separately. Am I mistaken in my interpretation of the wiring in the nameplate?

Namcy, if you look at your schematic you should see that with CR507 de-energized T2. T4 & T5 ARE connected together to 2W through a normally closed set of contacts as are T1, T3, and T8 connected to 513. And when CR507 is energized, T2, T4, & T8 are connected together to 2W and T1, T3, & T5 are connected to 513. CR507 is used to change the rotation of the motor. T1 through T4 are the terminals for the run windings while T5 & T8 are the terminals for the start windings. By switching the polarity of the start windings in relationship to the run windings, the motor turns in the opposite direction.

 

[hbiss]

Where did you get that relay and why are you using it?? Doesn't look right to me either. And what is this motor on?

-Hal

 

[TwoBlocked]

Where did you get that relay and why are you using it?? Doesn't look right to me either. And what is this motor on?

-Hal

Looks fine to me. I've seen that same circuit used more than once for reversing a single phase, capacitor start motor. Of course the schematic doesn't show what controls CR506 nor CR507. But that has nothing to do with how the motor is controlled.

 

[Namcy]

Tulsa Electrician is correct, but I will let him explain so as to not confuse his answer. The way you have it wired, when CR507 is energized, it creates a dead short between 513 and 2W. This causes the breaker to trip and blow your fuse.

Thank you for your reponse

Tulsa Electrician is correct, but I will let him explain so as to not confuse his answer. The way you have it wired, when CR507 is energized, it creates a dead short between 513 and 2W. This causes the breaker to trip and blow your fuse.

I do not contest that, as it does make sense to me as well. Initially, that is how I would have wired the terminals on the motor. However, my confusion, that brought me here for assistance, stems from the fact that the wiring diagram on the motor's nameplate for low voltage, which is the only option I am interested in, seems to suggest that

Tulsa Electrician is correct, but I will let him explain so as to not confuse his answer. The way you have it wired, when CR507 is energized, it creates a dead short between 513 and 2W. This causes the breaker to trip and blow your fuse.

I do not contest that, as it does make sense to me as well. Initially, that is how I would have wired the terminals on the motor, just by looking at the diagram with the control relay, which is a snippet of an old larger schematic drawing provided by the manufacturer of the equipment the motor is coupled to. However, my confusion, that brought me here for assistance, stems from the fact that the wiring diagram on the motor's nameplate for low voltage, which is the only option I am interested in, provided by its manufacturer seems to suggest that while wiring the motor for this type voltage, the SIX terminals must be connected together in only TWO different groups, then wired together with each one of the two cables representing the single-phase main power supply line. I want someone to clarify that for me. Please look at both diagrams I have provided, and tell me if, and where, I am misinterpreting the wiring. I understand the explanation provided by others for the short circuit, but what I do not comprehend is if my interpretation of the wirings provided on the two diagrams is faulty. One diagram (the manufacturer of the equipment the motor is tied to) suggests to connect the six terminals on the motor with the external wires coming from the main power supply line and the control relay in FOUR different groups. Whereas the diagram ( of the motor's manufacturer) suggests to connect terminals in only TWO groups. Thank you

 

[Namcy]

Where did you get that relay and why are you using it?? Doesn't look right to me either. And what is this motor on?

-Hal

The relay is part of a larger circuit and inside an electrical control panel for an equipment, used for thermoforming, that was installed at least ten years ago at the company. The motor controlled the forward/reverse movement of that equipment. But, since I started working there, every time that equipment is powered on, it will move forward in fits and starts just once. Then to move it in reverse, the operator has to do that manually with a tool connected to the shaft of the motor. I was recently assigned to resolve that issue by having the motor fulfilling its normal purpose. The diagram provided by the manufacturer ( from which the diagram with the control relay is extracted ) is at least 20 years old. I am fairly new to the company as I have been working there for just three months.

 

[TwoBlocked]

...

I do not contest that, as it does make sense to me as well. Initially, that is how I would have wired the terminals on the motor, just by looking at the diagram with the control relay, which is a snippet of an old larger schematic drawing provided by the manufacturer of the equipment the motor is coupled to. However, my confusion, that brought me here for assistance, stems from the fact that the wiring diagram on the motor's nameplate for low voltage, which is the only option I am interested in, provided by its manufacturer seems to suggest that while wiring the motor for this type voltage, the SIX terminals must be connected together in only TWO different groups, then wired together with each one of the two cables representing the single-phase main power supply line. I want someone to clarify that for me. Please look at both diagrams I have provided, and tell me if, and where, I am misinterpreting the wiring. I understand the explanation provided by others for the short circuit, but what I do not comprehend is if my interpretation of the wirings provided on the two diagrams is faulty. One diagram (the manufacturer of the equipment the motor is tied to) suggests to connect the six terminals on the motor with the external wires coming from the main power supply line and the control relay in FOUR different groups. Whereas the diagram ( of the motor's manufacturer) suggests to connect terminals in only TWO groups. Thank you

Namcy, I can understand how the schematic SEEMS to wire the the motor differently than the name plate, but it does not. Try this: On the schematic, pencil in by each of the motor terminals whether they are connected to conductor 513 or to conductor 3W. You should see that three terminals are connected to the one power rail, and the other three are connected to the other power rail, same as shown on the nameplate. It's just that terminals T5 and T8 go through the relay contacts.

 

[TwoBlocked]

The relay is part of a larger circuit and inside an electrical control panel for an equipment, used for thermoforming, that was installed at least ten years ago at the company. The motor controlled the forward/reverse movement of that equipment. But, since I started working there, every time that equipment is powered on, it will move forward in fits and starts just once. Then to move it in reverse, the operator has to do that manually with a tool connected to the shaft of the motor. I was recently assigned to resolve that issue by having the motor fulfilling its normal purpose. The diagram provided by the manufacturer ( from which the diagram with the control relay is extracted ) is at least 20 years old. I am fairly new to the company as I have been working there for just three months.

I suspect a mechanical problem that the motor is not strong enough to overcome. My experience with trouble calls: 50% are operator error, 25% are mechanical, and 25% are electrical. But it often takes an electrician to figure out which it is. Can you / have you taken an amp draw on the motor when the equipment is supposed to move but does not?

 

[Namcy]

Namcy, if you look at your schematic you should see that with CR507 de-energized T2. T4 & T5 ARE connected together to 2W through a normally closed set of contacts as are T1, T3, and T8 connected to 513. And when CR507 is energized, T2, T4, & T8 are connected together to 2W and T1, T3, & T5 are connected to 513. CR507 is used to change the rotation of the motor. T1 through T4 are the terminals for the run windings while T5 & T8 are the terminals for the start windings. By switching the polarity of the start windings in relationship to the run windings, the motor turns in the opposite direction.

TwoBlocked, thank you for your response. I get your explanation. However, my issue is to find out where in my wiring, I am misinterpreting the diagrams provided by the manufacturers of the motor and the equipment it controls that I submitted along with my post. I want to be able to defend myself in front of my hierarchy with tangible proof that I was just following the technical documentation I was given should the problem persist or take an unexpected turn. Because a new fuse and control relay have been ordered and will be installed as soon as they are delib]vered this upcoming week. I want to be able to cover my back with rational and logic explanation based on the technical documentation I as given to perform my job, and defend myself by saying that I was following the standards of the trade.

 

[Namcy]

Namcy, I can understand how the schematic SEEMS to wire the the motor differently than the name plate, but it does not. Try this: On the schematic, pencil in by each of the motor terminals whether they are connected to conductor 513 or to conductor 3W. You should see that three terminals are connected to the one power rail, and the other three are connected to the other power rail, same as shown on the nameplate. It's just that terminals T5 and T8 go through the relay contacts.

TwoBlocked, Thank you for your response. Indeed, after tracing the path of each terminal I now see what you mean. But still, just by looking at the nameplate on the motor, I would have connected the terminals of the motor, going through the relay contacts, directly to the others. I think my misinsterpretation at that level led to my mistake.

 

[Namcy]

I suspect a mechanical problem that the motor is not strong enough to overcome. My experience with trouble calls: 50% are operator error, 25% are mechanical, and 25% are electrical. But it often takes an electrician to figure out which it is. Can you / have you taken an amp draw on the motor when the equipment is supposed to move but does not?

I have not yet. Since I was only recently assigned to resolve that issue, and the first thing that I noticed were obvious errors in the wirng of the motor's terminals that were previously made.

 

[hbiss]

To make it simple- the OP has to understand that to reverse the motor all you have to do is swap the red and black leads.

That relay will do that for you if you connect the red to 5, black to 6 (I think it's a 6). Then connect the blue/orange to 1 and the white/yellow to 2.

2M goes to neutral.

Looks fine to me. I've seen that same circuit used more than once for reversing a single phase, capacitor start motor. Of course the schematic doesn't show what controls CR506 nor CR507. But that has nothing to do with how the motor is controlled.

Oh yeah it will.
My problem is with how the control circuit (SHT 1, fuse and coil) are connected with the contacts. I assume SHT 1 goes to the hot. The relay coil is in series with the motor.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

My problem is with how the control circuit (SHT 1, fuse and coil) are connected with the contacts. I assume SHT 1 goes to the hot. The relay coil is in series with the motor.

Hmmm. How about we connect 4 to neutral and 3 to hot. (Switched to turn the motor on and off.) Then there is a switch between 2M and SHT 1 that reverses the motor.

-Hal

 

[TwoBlocked]

To make it simple- the OP has to understand that to reverse the motor all you have to do is swap the red and black leads.

That relay will do that for you if you connect the red to 5, black to 6 (I think it's a 6). Then connect the blue/orange to 1 and the white/yellow to 2.

2M goes to neutral.


Oh yeah it will.
My problem is with how the control circuit (SHT 1, fuse and coil) are connected with the contacts. I assume SHT 1 goes to the hot. The relay coil is in series with the motor.

-Hal

I am certain it is T5 and T8 (not T^) that are reversed. At one time there were two sets of start winding that were labeled T5& T6 and T7 & T8. Each winding was rated for 120VAC and could be wired in series or in parallel depending on the incoming voltage. But know you only see T5 and T8. It might (or might not...) have to do with how the internal motor protection switch is wired. I'm a little fuzzy on that point.

The way I read the schematic is CR506 a SSR (Solid State Relay), and the symbol shown is a triac that functionally acts as the motor contactor. SSRs do not have a coil as electro-mechanical contactors do and therefore do not have an inductive kickback that can fry some transistors. CR506 is likely to be energized by a DC circuit that could be damaged by inductive kickback.

 

[TwoBlocked]

Hmmm. How about we connect 4 to neutral and 3 to hot. (Switched to turn the motor on and off.) Then there is a switch between 2M and SHT 1 that reverses the motor.

-Hal

A switch between 2W and 102 (Your "SHT 1" which I read as "continued on sheet 1") I believe would cause a dead short between 120VAC and the neutral, tripping some overcurrent device upstream.

 

[jack-Phil]

what kind of motor is this we are talking about?

Sent from my CPH1909 using Tapatalk

 

[TwoBlocked]

what kind of motor is this we are talking about?

Sent from my CPH1909 using Tapatalk

See post #11

 

[hbiss]

Sorry, I keep looking at that schematic as a ladder diagram. it's not.

A switch between 2W and 102 (Your "SHT 1" which I read as "continued on sheet 1") I believe would cause a dead short between 120VAC and the neutral, tripping some overcurrent device upstream.

Well, no. Not if the (switched) incoming 120V line was connected neutral to 4 and hot to 3.

-Hal