junction box in attic-inspector question

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1- Device covers and panel covers are part of the electrical system.

2- Ceiling panels are not required and are a dressing.

3- Access doors are just that, doors

4- Insulation in the attic is a building code requirement and is part of the building.

5- Anyone who would spend hours a day on a discussion board is anything but sane.

As a code enforcement official should I see a box that can not be accessed from below in the attic I would note it for final. At final, if I can not see the box then I promise you it will be rejected and I would stand by it until the state AHJ sets forth a formal interpretation. Anyone want to guess how NC looks at it?
 
Ceiling panels, do you meAn acoustic tiles? What if it is a plenum space above the drop ceiling? So I can't have a J box there? (I'm not disputing NM is not permissible about a drop ceiling that is a plenum space or in a commercial building or, or ...)

What if the attic is not required to be insulated, but it's there anyway?

I don't care how NC sees it, its illogical unless they agree with me, because I'm right.

Oh and the link I sent you was for an access panel, which is part of the wall assembly(part of the building) which has to be removed to access our imaginary j box behind it.
 
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M. D. said:
Would the insulation really have to be removed?? disturbed yes ,.removed? I've found more than one without removing the insulation .
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Using that logic you could conceal the j-box behind unfinished drywall and it would be legal. IF you can find it you would only have to DISTURB,not remove the drywall from the building. Lets say you or your helper is scratching around and straddling 2ft center truss in 12 inches of insulation. Just as you find it you step thru the FINISHED ceiling of the dining room. Damn,I just ruined the finish of this structure.:D I don't accept j-boxes buried in insulation. Reason; not installed in a workman like manner. My opinion,my jurisdiction. You don't have to like it or agree with it but you have to do it. I am in just as big a rush to finish this house as you are. Guards,handrails,etc are required in certain areas to limit your exposure to fall hazard. Digging around in the insulation looking for a j-box increases your potential to fall thru ceiling. Accessible also means having the ability to work on it safely.
 
The NEC is not a design manual. You dont not enforce "safety design" just electrical safety. I appreciate your concern for the contractors you inspect, but its not a code issue.

It's not safe for me to work on a 75' articulating man lift, even if I take all the precautions, so are you also saying since its unsafe I cannot install a device up that high?? I guess you don't want me up there looking for a wire that's been chewed by squirrels. Sure your jurisdiction, your rules, That doesn't make you right. I'm too lazy but I'd like to see a FOrmal interpetation.
 
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Jack this is the definition of ..Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
 
jwelectric said:
Take a look at 314.29??.so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building?.
Seeing that the insulation in the attic is required by the building code would the insulation be part of the building?
In my opinion the insulation is part of the building therefore the box would be in violation if below the insulation.
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I did, and then I looked up "accessible" in Definitions.

No, insulation is not structural, nor a part of the finish.

If this failed, we would have to seek a higher authority.
 
jwelectric said:
Anyone who would spend hours a day on a discussion board is anything but sane.
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I resemble that remark! :grin:

At final, if I can not see the box then I promise you it will be rejected . . .
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On what grounds? "I can't see it"? :confused: I missed that rule.

Upon whom is it encumbent to push aside the insulation?

What if you asked to see the box, and I made it visible?
 
I guess I can't run new circuits through the attic if I need to move insulation out of the way in order to drill a hole in the top of a wall.

Nor can I install blocking for installing a ceiling fan box. I need to move the insulation out of the way for that, too.

And no more cutting in can lights. That involves moving insulation as well.

Does the 'no moving insulation' rule apply to cutting in new devices such as receptacles and switches in to exterior walls as well?
 
jwelectric said:
re?move/riˈmo͞ov/
Verb: Take away (something unwanted or unnecessary) from the position it occupies.
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Wait till my kids find out about this logic! Every night after dinner they REMOVE the dishes from the table. Once they find out they only have to move them around the place settings I'm stuck with a pile of rotting leftovers, ceramic, glass, and tin every night at dinner. Yuk!!
 
Paul Blart: SIR! I'm going to have to have you removed!
ActionDave: No problem. {Takes one step to the side} Will there be anything else?
:grin:
 
nhfire77 said:
The NEC is not a design manual. You dont not enforce "safety design" just electrical safety. I appreciate your concern for the contractors you inspect, but its not a code issue.

It's not safe for me to work on a 75' articulating man lift, even if I take all the precautions, so are you also saying since its unsafe I cannot install a device up that high?? I guess you don't want me up there looking for a wire that's been chewed by squirrels. Sure your jurisdiction, your rules, That doesn't make you right. I'm too lazy but I'd like to see a FOrmal interpetation.
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As I stated this is MY opinion. The general public seems to think
Code Enforcement includes everything from the neighbors Magnolia leaves falling in their yard to the color of paint on your house.

The Admin section of the North Carolina Electrical Code,2008 edition. ( 10.3 Purpose) States in part that all regulations contained in this code have a reasonable and substantial connection with the public health,"SAFETY",morals,or general welfare,and their provisions shall be construed "Liberally" to those ends.

You can say that this is my Liberal interpretation of Safety regards J-boxes hidden within attic insulation.

Regards your man lift scenario: by necessity there are some locations that are dangerous and require electical devices and or equipment to be placed there. This can NOT be changed and is generally accepted as a part of life. We change the things we can and live with those we can not. By any and all means go get that squirrel damage fixed.:D
 
One-eyed Jack said:
Using that logic you could conceal the j-box behind unfinished drywall and it would be legal.
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No, drywall is 'building finish' insulation is not.

I don't accept j-boxes buried in insulation. Reason; not installed in a workman like manner.
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NFPAs own manual of style and logic says 'workmanlike' is unenforceable. And IMO inspectors that use that section are just grasping at straws to enforce their personal wishes.:mad:

My opinion,my jurisdiction. You don't have to like it or agree with it but you have to do it.
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And there you admit it, 'NOT IN MY TOWN' well it is not your town town or jurisdiction, it is the jurisdiction you where chosen to enforce the code in, you where not hired to make up your own requirements.

Looks like some ECs in your area need to grow some balls and hold you to the rules as written,



Accessible also means having the ability to work on it safely.
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Cite a code section or accept it, no third option.
 
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