Just for Fun:

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skeshesh

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles, Ca
But think about an individual particle. Why would it continually zig-zag? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line (well, kinda-sorta, but let's just use that for now). Zig-zagging is a waste of energy.

What about light traveling at the speed of...light. If it is moving in a "wave fashion", then it is moving faster than light because it also follows the extra length of the zig-zag path.

You are asking what if the particle is zipping down a winding street. Then what is the net speed toward the destination?

I'm not sure if any of this has to do with what you are after but it is fun to think about.

Pretty funny but untrue. Why do you insist on using classical physics to talk about subatomic phenomena? I can think of another experiement that proved electrons do have a wave functionality:

http://library.thinkquest.org/19662/low/eng/electron-wave-exp.html
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
When talking about 'wave-particle duality', you really need to be specific about what is doing the 'waving' and what is being described by the waves.

When you talk about waves in water or waves in a hose, you are talking about mechanical waves; some _thing_ is moving from one place to another. Waves in water are generally 'transverse' waves; the water moves up and down, but the energy carried by the wave moves sideways. The water molecules follow small circular paths, but don't actually move very far; but energy moves along with the wave itself. The energy of the wave is the gravitational potential energy of the water being lifted; as some water drops down it provides energy to lift adjacent water, and the wave travels on.

Sound waves in air are 'longitudinal'; the motion of the air molecules is in the same direction as the energy being transferred. In this case, the air molecules move back and forth, creating regions of high and low pressure. The energy of the wave is carried in the potential energy of this pressure difference, and as this pressure difference collapses in one location the energy released creates a pressure difference nearby; the energy of the wave moves through the air.

The mathematics of how such mechanical waves propagate, and what happens when different wave patterns interact, is well understood, at least in the case of linear media.

Electromagnetic waves are a different phenomena. Rather than having bunches of particles move side to side, what changes is the intensity of the electric field in a region of space. Imagine a simple parallel plate capacitor, connected to an AC source. The plates don't move at all, but the electric field between the plates is constantly changing. The electric field is not moving side to side; it is simply _there_ with a changing value.

However a changing electric field will create a magnetic field, just as a current will create a magnetic field. With the capacitor above (and its changing electric field) we get a changing magnetic field as well. The magnetic field doesn't move from side to side, it is simply _there_ with a changing value.

On top of this, a changing magnetic field will create an electric field. This chain gives us our mechanism for energy transfer.

A bit of electric field in free space, with no charges to maintain it, is analogous to a pile of water in the middle of the ocean without a container to hold it. The pile of water wants to fall down to sea level, but the potential energy needs to go somewhere; in the case of the ocean some of that energy will go into lifting other water, the net result being that the pile of water appears to move; you have a wave. In the case of the electric field, the collapsing electric field creates a magnetic field which creates an electric field, and the 'burp' in the electric field appears to move.

The 'wave' nature of electromagnetic waves, and the 'wave' nature of ocean waves come from very different basic physics. The reason that both are 'waves' is that the same mathematics describes the propagation of these waves, the interference of the waves, etc.

Yet another place that waves show up is in the quantum mechanical description of the locations of particles. An electron is not 'waving' from side to side, but we cannot say _exactly_ where an electron is and how it is moving. The best possible description of the location of an electron is a probability function, and it turns out that these probability functions are described by the same sort of mathematics used to describe the shapes and interactions of waves. So we say that the position of the electron is described by a 'wavefunction', and additionally when electrons interact we find that those interactions are governed by the same sort of mathematics that we see when different mechanical waves interact.

I'm going to stop here because I've overstepped my sure knowledge and because this field is better explained by others who know more. My only basic point is that you shouldn't take the concept of 'wave' too far; ocean waves, sound waves, electromagnetic waves, and electron position waves are all different things that happen to be described _in part_ by similar mathematics.

-Jon
 

Mayimbe

Senior Member
Location
Horsham, UK
But think about an individual particle. Why would it continually zig-zag? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line (well, kinda-sorta, but let's just use that for now). Zig-zagging is a waste of energy.

What about light traveling at the speed of...light. If it is moving in a "wave fashion", then it is moving faster than light because it also follows the extra length of the zig-zag path.

You are asking what if the particle is zipping down a winding street. Then what is the net speed toward the destination?

I'm not sure if any of this has to do with what you are after but it is fun to think about.

Completely.

Taking on the light theme. The light is the interception of two waves that are ortogonal to each other right? Then, there was something called the Poynting Vector. Maybe Im talking about the velocity of this vector. But if this vector is travelling at the speed of light, then whats the velocity of an electron travelling in the wave that we said before. Faster than the speed of light??

Obviously I dont know the answer to that, If I had the answer I would not be here talking to you probably.

My conclusion is that it is impossible to estimate the velocity of an electron travelling in a electric wire, without proper justifications and calculations.

Taking back on the OP. Electricity is one those things that makes you believe that there is a god who created all those things that we dont completely understand now, and when you think that you finally reached, then you discover that you were completely wrong.

Ultimately, electricity is a "bunch" of electrons circulating through a wire.

When talking about 'wave-particle duality', you really need to be specific about what is doing the 'waving' and what is being described by the waves.

...I'm going to stop here because I've overstepped my sure knowledge and because this field is better explained by others who know more. My only basic point is that you shouldn't take the concept of 'wave' too far; ocean waves, sound waves, electromagnetic waves, and electron position waves are all different things that happen to be described _in part_ by similar mathematics.

But if they are different things that happen to be described by similar mathematics, then we can always assume similar things in each type of wave to make thing less complicated. They have similar behaviour after all.

WAVES ARE EVERYWHERE
 

ohmhead

Senior Member
Location
ORLANDO FLA
Well thinking back Larry no one ever told me that when i started on this forum as a uneducated electrician with no MIT schooling heres a old theory i read which has me wondering ?????

Its called the Peltier Effect .

When a current is passed across a junction between two different metals heat takes place but can be reversible .

meaning heat produced during the passing thur one way in a conductor now heres the big one guys if current is returned during the 1/2 cycle in the ac wave it does the opposite now in the junction of passing current in the other direction has the effect of absorbing the heat when the current travels back in the other direction during the ac cycle .

Could this be how Harmonics work?

Heres one more in a closed circuit of two different metals if no voltage or current is present if you heat it current flows if you cool it current stops .


This really gets me how does a super conductor conduct?

Copper material heat is greater when current flows from hot junction to cold junction and less when its flowing from cold to hot.


This makes one think a bad junction is a good junction?

This kinda makes one wonder about how a electron gives off heat one way but if its going backwards towards its original place in time it now cools or absorbes heat back into itself ?

Electrons travel is not in a straight line the poles one talked about hitting are the other atoms which they are passing around in time placement in orbit they are electrons spinning at different points in orbit so they shoot off at different points and pass at different angles if there matter is less resistive they take shorter paths if there material is high in resistance they take longer paths .

But what if anything do i know i just run pipe all day .
 
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mivey

Senior Member
I love being young and being able to admit not-knowing :grin: must be annoying to be an old-timer and have to sound like a know-it-all all of the time ;)
I find the younger crowd more apt to be afraid to say "I don't know". That is really annoying and can be a big time-waster for us old folks who don't have a lot of time left to waste.

It's not that the old timers are trying to sound like know-it-alls, it is just that they are know-a-lots. Any real old timer will tell you the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know.
 
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