K & T Question

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Used to be K&T never got covered because it was on inside walls and people didn't insulate their attic. Then by the time insulation became the norm we stopped installing K&T.

Then came blown-in insulation and nobody questioned whether or not they could cover K&T. Well, maybe not nobody, but usually not insulation installers who weren't versed in electrical installations.

Now we have to sign a document stating there is no K&T before they'll install blown-in insulation.
 
ptonsparky said:
Not to my knowledge, but it sure happens alot.
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jaylectricity said:
Used to be K&T never got covered because it was on inside walls and people didn't insulate their attic. Then by the time insulation became the norm we stopped installing K&T.

Then came blown-in insulation and nobody questioned whether or not they could cover K&T. Well, maybe not nobody, but usually not insulation installers who weren't versed in electrical installations.

Now we have to sign a document stating there is no K&T before they'll install blown-in insulation.
Click to expand...

Makes we really wonder why anyone in a cold climate on the east would keep K&T
 
I'm thinking the main reason for not covering K & T in attics is the fact that it could be easily damaged by someone crawling around up there when concealed and not so much the thermal issue. I've got a house I was called to that was built in the 40's. It has been sold and the home inspection states that K & T is present. There is blown insulation throughout. It doesn't say anything about the insulation issue but the agent had me verify that the K & T was present. So I go up into the attic and find that yes, it is there and yes it is covered in insulation. So how do I play this? I told the agent that yes, I can remove the K & T but the blown in insulation would have to be removed first. I'm the only one in this situation who knows this is a violation of current standards but is it possible that it was legal back when it was done? The inspection report simply states that the K & T is there and goes no further. I do a lot of work for real estate agents correcting issues the home inspectors write up. I go into these places and only address the things on the inspection report but I could usually spend days correcting violations the home inspector missed. Where does a guy stop........
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I'm thinking the main reason for not covering K & T in attics is the fact that it could be easily damaged by someone crawling around up there when concealed and not so much the thermal issue. I've got a house I was called to that was built in the 40's. It has been sold and the home inspection states that K & T is present. There is blown insulation throughout. It doesn't say anything about the insulation issue but the agent had me verify that the K & T was present. So I go up into the attic and find that yes, it is there and yes it is covered in insulation. So how do I play this? I told the agent that yes, I can remove the K & T but the blown in insulation would have to be removed first. I'm the only one in this situation who knows this is a violation of current standards but is it possible that it was legal back when it was done? The inspection report simply states that the K & T is there and goes no further. I do a lot of work for real estate agents correcting issues the home inspectors write up. I go into these places and only address the things on the inspection report but I could usually spend days correcting violations the home inspector missed. Where does a guy stop........
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Unless someone is asking you to replace it, just verify and leave. Not much else you can do until the work order comes in.

My brother works for a company that installs insulation in older homes for lower income. They no longer insulate around K&T, after a couple fires it was obvious to them.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Makes we really wonder why anyone in a cold climate on the east would keep K&T
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As iwire said, it's not REALLY dangerous, just a little bit.

The reason people keep it is because of the money required to replace it. Usually it's installed in old houses with wood lather and plaster, and crown molding, and other woodwork. In order to replace it all you have to damage every single room in the house.
 
jaylectricity said:
Used to be K&T never got covered because it was on inside walls and people didn't insulate their attic. Then by the time insulation became the norm we stopped installing K&T.

Then came blown-in insulation and nobody questioned whether or not they could cover K&T. Well, maybe not nobody, but usually not insulation installers who weren't versed in electrical installations.

Now we have to sign a document stating there is no K&T before they'll install blown-in insulation.
Click to expand...

I always pass on a job that needs me to certify that there is no k&t wires in the home. Unless the home is gutted and rewired how do we know it has all been removed?
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I wonder if the fires were caused by contact with insulation or improper modifications to the K & T. I've seen some nasty taps over the years.
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I would lean towards the poorly done splices. The blown in cellulose has been and is still usually treated w/ fire retardant (ammonium sulfate and borate), so more than likely that old tinned 14 by itself would have to get pretty hot to realistically cause a fire.

On the other hand the paper backed batts that are laid on top of k & t sometimes are a little bit more worrisome, but even then, in the absence of a hot spot from a bad splice, fire should still be unlikely.
 
jaylectricity said:
As iwire said, it's not REALLY dangerous, just a little bit.

...
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Assuming that it is in its original condition and was correctly installed, I don't see K&T as being any more dangerous than NM, even where it is covered in thermal insulation assuming that the OCPD is per Table 310.15(B)(16). The original OCPD for K&T was often per the "free air" ampacity table.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Assuming that it is in its original condition and was correctly installed, I don't see K&T as being any more dangerous than NM, even where it is covered in thermal insulation assuming that the OCPD is per Table 310.15(B)(16). The original OCPD for K&T was often per the "free air" ampacity table.
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I think the main trouble with K&T is when it's installed in a home that still has a fuse panel and that fuse panel has the ability to house 30amp fuses AND the neutrals are all shared so the full load of two circuits may be carried on one neutral for a time.
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I'm thinking the main reason for not covering K & T in attics is the fact that it could be easily damaged by someone crawling around up there when concealed and not so much the thermal issue. I've got a house I was called to that was built in the 40's. It has been sold and the home inspection states that K & T is present. There is blown insulation throughout. It doesn't say anything about the insulation issue but the agent had me verify that the K & T was present. So I go up into the attic and find that yes, it is there and yes it is covered in insulation. So how do I play this? I told the agent that yes, I can remove the K & T but the blown in insulation would have to be removed first. I'm the only one in this situation who knows this is a violation of current standards but is it possible that it was legal back when it was done? The inspection report simply states that the K & T is there and goes no further. I do a lot of work for real estate agents correcting issues the home inspectors write up. I go into these places and only address the things on the inspection report but I could usually spend days correcting violations the home inspector missed. Where does a guy stop........
Click to expand...

No K&Tn and no K&T presently in use are two different things. If I'm crawling in insulation when replacing - I may physically remove some of it but likely will not remove all of it. Some gets abanoned in walls/ceilings also if they were not opened up when new wiring was installed.

I would never sign anything stating there is none in use - unless I did run all new circuits in the place and know nothing old was reconnected.
 
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