kidde smoke alarms (junk?)

[electrofelon]

I've had these problems with the Firex units in tha past and I know Kidde bought out the Firex company. Not sure if Kidde made any improvements. So, because I had gotten burnt on several occasions I stopped using Kidde and started using First Alert.

On two separate occasions with the First Alert units (about 8 units total on each job - smoke and combo's- 10 yr lithium ion batteries) after installing the 3rd or 4th unit they started going off (in alarm) in the HO's house and wouldn't stop. My first thought was that there was another brand unit somewhere in the house that I didn't notice but it turned out that was not the case. The first time this happened (after completing a replacement installation I had pulled (4) smoke alarms (that were in alarm condition) out of the ceiling and placed them on the HO's dressing table. They were still going off (on the table) for 20 minutes even as I was talking to the factory rep. I finally had to break open the battery compartment and remove the battery. Needless to say, and against my better judgement, I went back to the Kidde units. Didn't make any $$ on these jobs.

I don't know where these units are made or where these companies but their components from but they need to improve their products

Ok so we have some far from ecstatic reviews of Kidde and first alert, how about BRK?

 

[FionaZuppa]

I wonder whether ionization detectors are less vulnerable to false alarms than photocell detectors.

The make/models presented this far are the ion types.

Take one apart, they are crude crap electronics, they have no input voltage filtering either so its very possible that small spikes in power or even harmonics can damage them too. I have designed several voltage filtering blocks in the past, and I can tell you, even low power stuff, the size of the filtering block was about half the footprint of existing fire alarm ckt board.

I don't know where these units are made or where these companies but their components from but they need to improve their products

I don't know of any that are USA made. Most are MIC units. Sadly, the design likely comes from a USA place........ Their cheapness and fail rates are a combo of bad USA design + maybe some badly sourced parts and manufacturing outside the US.

 

[curt swartz]

Ok so we have some far from ecstatic reviews of Kidde and first alert, how about BRK?

First alert is BRK. It's just the retail branding of BRK.

We have used Firex/Kidde almost exclusively for the past 20+ years. Although lately more and more customers are requesting Nest protects.

We seldom get call backs. When we have its usually something related to what the customers is doing. Kids taking 2 hour hot showers without fan, kitchen smoke, etc.

When the alarms trigger the customer needs to find the one the red lights is on. You can then replace this device to see if it resolves the problem. If the same device continues to trigger you need to do more investigating on what is triggering it.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I install First Alert/ BRK 99 percent of the time. About 75 to 150 units per year. I always write the install date and where I purchased them on the back of the unit.
98 percent of the time when the alarm initiates it's because of something environmental.
(some people have a hard time differentiating between chirping and initiating into alarm)
I will remove them plug them in and leave them on my work bench in the garage for months sometimes and never hear a peep. literately .
All the smokes in my house are replacements from customers that I swapped out and I haven't had an issue with one yet wood stove and all. They have definitely initiated when leaving food in the oven or pan too long.

 

[kwired]

As far as bugs & dust go "setting off the sensor", I think that's a bit of BS excuse. With the USI tri-alarms I had the Nat Gas would alarm, but there is no sensor in the unit where a bug would cause Nat Gas to trip. Also, the ones I dealt with never had any bugs or dust in them......... but do have to ask, bugs and dust are a normal everyday occurance, so after decades of making alarms they still have not figured out a better way?? Does not add up for me.

First time mine were going off in middle of night I figured out which one was the triggering unit and disconnected it. Before going back to bed I was looking the thing over wondering what might be wrong with it, then a tiny little spider crawled out from inside the unit. It was then I realized maybe that was what triggered it. Every time false alarm has happened since I usually get the vacuum out and go over every unit in the house with it and that has always stopped false alarms for several months again.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Spiders & bugs...... I have never seen them do that to any alarm. But I have no reason to doubt it. Why dont alarm makers put a fine SS screen over their sensors, you can make screens for about 10,000 for 1cent (in china) !!

The USI model MDSCN111 is a tri alarm, and they would all (over time) randomly alert for nat gas. So annoying it did make me wonder, do I have nat gas leak somewhere? I had bought a ~$200 sensitive nat gas wand-meter tool just to check my ceiling areas (nat gas rises). Could not find any nat gas anywhere. And to boot, these units were all signaled together on 3rd wire, and some of them did not go off.

Bottom line is, these alarm units appear to be made like junk, and doesnt really matter what brand you pick.

 

[kwired]

Spiders & bugs...... I have never seen them do that to any alarm. But I have no reason to doubt it. Why dont alarm makers put a fine SS screen over their sensors, you can make screens for about 10,000 for 1cent (in china) !!

The USI model MDSCN111 is a tri alarm, and they would all (over time) randomly alert for nat gas. So annoying it did make me wonder, do I have nat gas leak somewhere? I had bought a ~$200 sensitive nat gas wand-meter tool just to check my ceiling areas (nat gas rises). Could not find any nat gas anywhere. And to boot, these units were all signaled together on 3rd wire, and some of them did not go off.

Bottom line is, these alarm units appear to be made like junk, and doesnt really matter what brand you pick.

Or you could seal the sensor opening with clear plastic or glass so that nothing will trigger it I guess

You still want free enough air flow so that any smoke in the air will get to the sensor

 

[FionaZuppa]

Or you could seal the sensor opening with clear plastic or glass so that nothing will trigger it I guess

You still want free enough air flow so that any smoke in the air will get to the sensor

??
A screen still allows air & smoke, but not bugs, etc.

 

[electrofelon]

Also, although I dont know exactly how smoke detectors work (Im sure its a quick google away, but I dont care), they have been around for decades now and I am pretty sure they can be made to not go off from bugs or dust.....

 

[GoldDigger]

??
A screen still allows air & smoke, but not bugs, etc.

But it will significantly slow the diffusion of air from one side of the screen to the other when there is no pressure gradient to drive flow. The result could cause an unacceptable increase in response time.

 

[texie]

Also, although I dont know exactly how smoke detectors work (Im sure its a quick google away, but I dont care), they have been around for decades now and I am pretty sure they can be made to not go off from bugs or dust.....

Seems that way to me too. Just imagine if commercial smoke detectors were this prone to falsing. We have so many resi grade products in the electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc. today that are just useless junk. It's just sad.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Also, although I dont know exactly how smoke detectors work (Im sure its a quick google away, but I dont care), they have been around for decades now and I am pretty sure they can be made to not go off from bugs or dust.....

Exactly.... +1

But it will significantly slow the diffusion of air from one side of the screen to the other when there is no pressure gradient to drive flow. The result could cause an unacceptable increase in response time.

I certainly was not suggesting "designed the wrong way".

 

[kwired]

But it will significantly slow the diffusion of air from one side of the screen to the other when there is no pressure gradient to drive flow. The result could cause an unacceptable increase in response time.

like I said, use clear plastic or glass as the screen and eliminate all false alarms from non smoke particles.

The commercial versions may very well have more advanced methods of determining what they are detecting instead of more physical screens.

Unit I remember examining and the tiny spider I saw crawl out of it - seem to recall there was a screen around the sense chamber. Also recall that openings were still large enough that spider could probably fit one of it's legs into the screen openings.

I'm just telling what I observed, anyone that can make something better at similar price is welcome to give it a shot.

 

[hbiss]

Seems that way to me too. Just imagine if commercial smoke detectors were this prone to falsing. We have so many resi grade products in the electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc. today that are just useless junk. It's just sad.

Funny, they make you pay $$ for AFCI breakers "to save lives" but nobody wants to spend a few dollars more for a smoke alarm that's trouble free that is a proven life saver.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Funny, they make you pay $$ for AFCI breakers "to save lives" but nobody wants to spend a few dollars more for a smoke alarm that's trouble free that is a proven life saver.

-Hal

Different group of manufacturers involved in that one and different set of circumstances involving how/why they ended up developing what they do have. The AFCI manufacturers were asked to come up with something to detect arcing faults. What they came up with only sort of works but they aren't going to sell hardly any without code mandates plus they want a return on their design and research efforts, so lets put a priority on getting these into codes so they will sell whether they are actually wanted or not.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Funny, they make you pay $$ for AFCI breakers "to save lives" but nobody wants to spend a few dollars more for a smoke alarm that's trouble free that is a proven life saver.

-Hal

Which make/models for resi are trouble free?

 

[goldstar]

The AFCI manufacturers were asked to come up with something to detect arcing faults. What they came up with only sort of works but they aren't going to sell hardly any without code mandates plus they want a return on their design and research efforts, so lets put a priority on getting these into codes so they will sell whether they are actually wanted or not.

That's the key to the AFCI requirement. "Sure we'll research it - we'll design it - we'll sell if ONLY if you make it a Code requirement." AND........nothing in our agreement states that it has to be fault free !!!

 

[sparky1118]

I always have customers call me this time of year with smokes going off in the middle of the night randomly. I think it has a lot to do with the humidity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[gadfly56]

But it will significantly slow the diffusion of air from one side of the screen to the other when there is no pressure gradient to drive flow. The result could cause an unacceptable increase in response time.

The size of the screen opening compared to the size of a micron or sub-micron smoke particle is vast and will not slow the diffusion of smoke into the chamber. In fact, such screens are commonly used in smoke detectors.

 

[kwired]

Mine went off once last night for only one "beep, beep beep" cycle.

They did this two or three times one night about a week ago, was only one "cycle" but two or three different times throughout the night.

Almost always happens in middle of night when it has happened.

Take vaccum cleaner to them and problem generally won't be back for months.