Kitchen Countertop Receptacles

[dlhoule]

charlie b

The function of a wall is to hang pictures.

And here I thought the primary function of a wall was to act as a divider or to provide privacy. It wasn't even until I was an adult (in age anyway) that I ever saw a picture on a bathroom wall.

I will agree that according to the wording a receptacle is required, but I am also willing to bet that the vast majority of Inspectors will not enforce it. You could easily mount receptacle near the front edge of counter and have cord hanging over the edge of counter and just by walking be knock a toaster or other small appliance off onto the floor. Now how safe is that?

 

[jeff43222]

Al, it's not a question of similarity in materials. It is a matter of dissimilarity of function. The function of a wall is to hang pictures. The function of a chimney is to carry away combustion gases.

The kind of chimney I'm referring to is one of those fancy dual-function chimneys. They carry away combustion gases and serve as the backsplash of a countertop. I say if you use a chimney for a backsplash, it becomes a de facto wall space.

Saying it's a break in the wall is arguable, but saying it's a break in the wall while it serves as a backsplash is trying to have it both ways.

 

[charlie b]

I say if you use a chimney for a backsplash, it becomes a de facto wall space.

I can't argue against that, except to point out that I think you meant "wall counter space," per 210.52(C), and not "wall space," per 210.52(A).

But in this case, isn't the chimney a "side splash," not a backsplash? Then it doesn't count. That was my first point, and I stand by that point. I don't agree with the notion that if a countertop ends at a side wall, the 25 inches of that side have to be counted as "wall counter space," and thus you need to put a receptacle in the side wall. What you have here is two separate counters. The right hand counter has a brick wall (that happens to be a chimney, but that does not matter) at its left edge. Since it is the side edge, and not the back edge, you don't need a receptacle there. I would say the same thing about the right hand edge of the left hand counter.

The other matter under discussion would come into play if there were a living room wall that had a chimney in the center, dividing the wall into two sections. I contend that the chimney separates the room in such a way as to create two separate "wall spaces," as addressed in 210.52(A). Others have disagreed with this point. But let's treat our points of disagreement separately.

 

[allenwayne]

To those that agreed with me I take that as a compliment.This whole question of is it a wall or a chimney is ridiculous.A chiminey is nothing but a flue within a wall and the wall counts as an area that is within the guidelines of needing a required receptacle just as a fixed window panel within this area still must have the required receptacles either within 20 in above or within the allowed measurments if below.Suppose there was a kitchen that had nothing but glass above the counter top would this area not require receptacles.I say no still must have required receptacles no matter if the wall was glass,brick,drywall or bamboo :wink: The whole question of is it a wall or not is not open to interpetation.If it is a solid non movable surface then it counts as a wall.Look at a railing it counts as a wall and requires a receptacle.Just because there are openings doesn`t change it`s interpetation.So if a floor box meets the requirements then that is what must be installed.To use a refrigerator door as an example is silly,the fridge is movable therefore the surface is not counted.the area behind it gets a receptacle although not required in spacing code it WON`T work without one.To me this whole thread has gone from a question to a who can argue better thread.Maybe the web master should have a section for the pig headed arguers I`ve said my piece and I supose have p%$##@d off others but sorry that is what i feel and had to say.LET IT GO !!!!!!!!!!

 

[charlie b]

Thanks for the interpretation, Allen. But let's take it back to the original question. Per your suggestion, I will leave alone the notion that whatever sits behind the counter needs to get receptacles. But this thread started with a side wall made of brick. Not a back wall, a side wall. So does a side wall require a receptacle, regardless of its material of composition? I say that it does not.

 

[charlie b]

By the way, one of these days I am going to start a new thread on this question:

Look at a railing. It counts as a wall and requires a receptacle.

I disagree :shock: , and I've twice said so in the middle of someone else's thread. So this is the third time I've tossed out this bait. So far, nobody has bit on the bait.

Care to dance? :wink: 8)

Or maybe I'll just wait until things get boring (defined as not having any threads breaking the 200 post barrier), and toss it out again. :lol:

 

[iwire]

Look at a railing. It counts as a wall and requires a receptacle.

I disagree :shock: , and I've twice said so in the middle of someone else's thread. So this is the third time I've tossed out this bait. So far, nobody has bit on the bait.

OK here comes the sucker fish. :wink:

If I have a room dived with a railing why is it not a wall space?

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(3)The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

It seems straight forward but nothing in 210.52 has been so far.....why should this be any different? :lol:

Time for Charlie to reel me in. :shock:

 

[al hildenbrand]

LOL

 

[jeff43222]

But this thread started with a side wall made of brick. Not a back wall, a side wall. So does a side wall require a receptacle, regardless of its material of composition? I say that it does not.

When I looked through the handbook for extra clarification, the diagrams they provided didn't have any examples showing countertops with side walls, but at the same time, I didn't see anything that said only the backs of counters count as wall counter space when determining receptacle requirements.

Many of the kitchens I work in have countertops with side walls. The whole point of the requirement is to make it convenient (safe) to plug in appliances without needing extension cords. Any appliance within range of the back wall receptacle will not need a side wall receptacle, and most countertop space doesn't have a side wall next to it, so it seems that for the purpose of needing receptacles to supply the countertop, the side wall is redundant.

At the same time, I don't think the code is sufficiently clear on this point since there is no mention of back vs. side walls. The inspectors I deal with have been enforcing the requirement on side walls, and I can't point to anything in the code that says they are wrong.

 

[George Stolz]

...and I can't point to anything in the code that says they are wrong.

Don't worry. I am 26 years old. I can guarantee that everyone on CMP-2 (including the alternates) are older than I am. Statistically speaking, it's likely that they will die before I do. So, every cycle from now until they accept it, or die, I will submit a proposal to get this fixed. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[allenwayne]

Charlie the subject of the railing issue has been rehashed over and over.I brought it up recently in regards to a situation that was about was it a hall or a living area and I believe you agreed it was a hall/walkway.In that situation i still say it was a hall/walkway since it was at the top of a set of stairs and to access anywhere else you had to go through this area.The NEC is a guideline that doesn`t have all the answers.Interpetations are well like a@#%#les we all have one but seldom are two the same :wink: But in a kitchen there is no question as to is it a required space area.A 2 ft wall requires a receptacle although I feel it is silly but it is required.A counter is a counter is a counter.There was a thread about a desk area recently ,same scenario glass wall no place for a receptacle to meet counter top spacing,that would be the inspectors call on that one but as far as just because it is a chimney that doesn`t change a thing.What if the chimney was in the middle of a spacing area does it not need a receptacle because there is a chimney behind it ???The matter of the side wall is well stupid.We all measure from the back corner and not the leading edge.IMO the code was written so as to not have extension cords all over.Place a can opener in a corner and it has a 2 ft. cord.It will reach the side wall and 2 ft across the back(where there has to be a receptacle)debate if you will but it is a required area to have a receptacle and if the AHJ lets it go well that`s on them.They sign thier name on it and are responsible for thier decisions.

 

[charlie b]

When I looked through the handbook for extra clarification, the diagrams they provided didn't have any examples showing countertops with side walls

It?s not a very strong argument, but look at the NEC (not handbook) Figure 210.52. It shows a few counter spaces over 12 inches wide, and it shows where receptacles are needed. But it doesn't show any receptacles on the side walls.

The whole point of the requirement is to make it convenient (safe) to plug in appliances without needing extension cords. Any appliance within range of the back wall receptacle will not need a side wall receptacle

I agree completely. That is my strongest case for not needing a receptacle on a side wall.

That notwithstanding, in my kitchen, the left hand side wall does have a receptacle, and I am glad to have it there.

At the same time, I don't think the code is sufficiently clear on this point since there is no mention of back vs. side walls.

I agree with this as well. Anyone else start collecting issues for the 2011 NEC revision?

 

[charlie b]

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(3)The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

It seems straight forward but nothing in 210.52 has been so far.....why should this be any different? :lol:

Time for Charlie to reel me in. :shock:

Thanks for taking the bait, Bob. :wink: Now please do me a favor. Go find a really big dictionary and look up the word "afford" and any of its derivative forms (such as "afforded"). Then tell me in what way space is "afforded by" a railing. :shock: :shock:

 

[dlhoule]

Then tell me in what way space is "afforded by" a railing

IMO it just takes one with a lot of money

 

[jwelectric]

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(3)The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

It seems straight forward but nothing in 210.52 has been so far.....why should this be any different? :lol:

Time for Charlie to reel me in. :shock:

Thanks for taking the bait, Bob. :wink: Now please do me a favor. Go find a really big dictionary and look up the word "afford" and any of its derivative forms (such as "afforded"). Then tell me in what way space is "afforded by" a railing. :shock: :shock:

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

afford

2 : to make available, give forth, or provide naturally or inevitably <the sun affords warmth to the earth> <the roof afforded a fine view>

 

[charlie b]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

afford

2 : to make available, give forth, or provide naturally or inevitably

So exactly what "space" is it that is "made available" by the railing? What space is "given forth" by the railing? What space is "provided naturally" by the railing?

All the space in the entire room was there before you put in the railing, so the railing did not "afford" any space in this context.

Please try again.

OH - Edited to add that it just occurred to me that you might have posted that definition as a way of supporting my point of view. Just in case that is the case, thank you. 8)

 

[jeff43222]

When I looked through the handbook for extra clarification, the diagrams they provided didn't have any examples showing countertops with side walls

It?s not a very strong argument, but look at the NEC (not handbook) Figure 210.52. It shows a few counter spaces over 12 inches wide, and it shows where receptacles are needed. But it doesn't show any receptacles on the side walls.

It also doesn't show any side walls; rather, it shows how close to the sink the receptacles need to be.

All of the diagrams I've seen don't show any counters having side walls. If you look at Exhibit 210.26 in the handbook, the sides of the countertops are adjacent to a range, a refrigerator, and air.

I wonder if it was done that way on purpose so as to allow the AHJs latitude to decide if side walls need receptacles.

 

[jwelectric]

Please try again.

Thesaurus.com
Main Entry: afford
Definition: able, give
Synonyms: allow, bear, incur, manage, spare, stand, support, sustain, bestow, furnish, grant, impart, offer, provide, render, supply, yield

 

[jwelectric]

It also doesn't show any side walls; rather, it shows how close to the sink the receptacles need to be.

All of the diagrams I've seen don't show any counters having side walls. If you look at Exhibit 210.26 in the handbook, the sides of the countertops are adjacent to a range, a refrigerator, and air.

I wonder if it was done that way on purpose so as to allow the AHJs latitude to decide if side walls need receptacles.

Both books show a side wall.

The Handbook has one at the refrigerator.

The NEC has one on each side of the sink and the range.

This is to show the ?inspectors? that to require one on the side wall would require one on each side of the sink and range and one to be installed in the side of the refrigerator.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Looking to the use of the two words afforded by in context in the NEC, they show up exactly 5 additional times as reported by the NECH search engine.

210.52(A)(2)(3)
"The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as. . ."

550.13(G)(4)
"In the wall space afforded by bar-type counters"

760.30(A)(1)
". . .protection against physical damage is afforded by building construction such as. . ."

760.30(A)(2)
". . .protection can be afforded by building construction such as. . ."

760.30(B)(1)
". . .protection against physical damage is afforded by building construction such as. . ."

760.30(B)(2)
". . .protection can be afforded by building construction such as. . ."