Kitchen Electrical Design Opinions

[FlComm]

Apologies upfront if this is not allowed or I'm breaking forum rules. I am looking to get opinions and suggestions from other members of what I have worked up for my personal kitchen renovation happening.

I live in Florida and we are currently, until January at least, under 2017 code and my county goes by NEC without any local AHJ adjustments.
While going through all of the outlets and circuits and dedicated device outlets I've ended up with (18) individual circuits having to be added. At this count I'm seriously considering adding a subpanel adjacent to my main solely for the Kitchen circuits. Even after eliminating existing circuits, I will still have to use tandem breakers which for some reason I just really dislike in a panel.
I am still working through the overhead recessed lighting design/ layout which is proving more work than I anticipated as it is not an area I have much experience in. The good thing is all lighting will be LED so the draw is minimal.

As it is a gas range which requires a 600cfm hood it will also have a make-up air system installed. Does this require any special circuits per NEC? I don't see anything so I'm planning for it to be on the same circuit as the hood unless it's not allowed.

I'm open to suggestions/ recommendations based on everyone's expertise and experience as I'm sure I've got at least a couple of things wrong or overthought.

I know you will but if this breaks the rules let me know.

 

[tortuga]

Nice plans. Your an EE and a chef?
Did you draw those?
At first I was thinking 18 circuits geez thats allot. Then I looked at your plans and yeah that makes sense.
I have done sub panels for kitchens in the past, seems like a reasonable idea.
Whats the 30 amp circuit by the gas stove for ? induction oven?
I would run #8's as thats more standard for a range.
Cheers

 

[infinity]

Looks good. You could put all of the lighting on one circuit to save a circuit.

 

[suemarkp]

Note that all of those 120V 15/20A circuits in the kitchen need to be AFCI. It isn't just lights.... Probably the covered porch too if that is considered a dining room. That kind of kills the use of tandems since I have yet to see a tandem AFCI. You may want to consider a plug on neutral subpanel, as it makes for a cleaner install when you have a bunch of AFCI's (no pile of pigtails to deal with). You may also want to use combo AFCI/GFCI for the things that need both, since the incremental cost of that type of breaker over an AFCI only is small and avoids the accessibility issue for dishwasher and garbage disposal GFCI locations.

I'm doing a panel upgrade at my house and have one plug on neutral panel and one that is not. I've heard of clearance issues with larger DP GFCI's not fitting in PON panels. With GFCI's becoming mandatory for things like AC units, clothes dryers, and maybe car charger receptacles, this not fitting issue could be a problem.

 

[FlComm]

Thanks Tortuga but I’m far from either unfortunately. As I’ve gotten older the days of racing are getting replaced with CAD work in spare time and drinking beers over a grill. This design is the wife’s wish list for a kitchen/ entertaining area and I figure if she put up with me for 20 years I owed her.
i am seriously considering a sub panel but my current isn’t a feed through so I’ll have to drop in a breaker to feed it. Not a big deal but I’ll need to figure out what size is needed I guess. The 30 amp is actually all that’s needed for the oven believe it or not. It’s dual fuel and a no frills version. Wife picked one of the antique versions so no Bluetooth, WiFi, or even a clock

Looks good. You could put all of the lighting on one circuit to save a circuit.

I thought about it but wasn’t sure if it would be too many devices just from a logical standpoint. If you don’t think there would be any issues then I’ll move them onto a single circuit. Anything I can do do save some panel space.

 

[LarryFine]

When having to add a sub-panel, I look at moving existing 15a circuits to the new sub-panel, and putting the larger new circuits in the existing panel. In some cases, that could be the difference between a 30a feeder and a 100a feeder.

 

[James L]

Even though you have a dual fuel range, I would suggest the 40 amp circuit as mentioned earlier, and I would also put a 120 volt receptacle just in case it ever gets changed to gas only

In my neck of the woods, we put the garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit.

That's a really elaborate kitchen to not have under cabinet lighting

 

[James L]

When having to add a sub-panel, I look at moving existing 15a circuits to the new sub-panel, and putting the larger new circuits in the existing panel. In some cases, that could be the difference between a 30a feeder and a 100a feeder.

I think just the opposite on which circuits to move. Even though the 15 amp circuits draw less, they draw it on a more constant basis.

Not that I'm thinking of a feeder size, but just the Practical use

 

[FlComm]

Note that all of those 120V 15/20A circuits in the kitchen need to be AFCI. It isn't just lights.... Probably the covered porch too if that is considered a dining room. That kind of kills the use of tandems since I have yet to see a tandem AFCI. You may want to consider a plug on neutral subpanel, as it makes for a cleaner install when you have a bunch of AFCI's (no pile of pigtails to deal with). You may also want to use combo AFCI/GFCI for the things that need both, since the incremental cost of that type of breaker over an AFCI only is small and avoids the accessibility issue for dishwasher and garbage disposal GFCI locations.

I'm doing a panel upgrade at my house and have one plug on neutral panel and one that is not. I've heard of clearance issues with larger DP GFCI's not fitting in PON panels. With GFCI's becoming mandatory for things like AC units, clothes dryers, and maybe car charger receptacles, this not fitting issue could be a problem.

I was thinking along the same lines suemarkp and going with combination breakers anywhere they are needed. We really want to avoid GFCI outlets to keep a cleaner look so while breakers add some cost it’s minimal to the overall budget. As part of this overall Reno I upgraded my panel to a homeline PON type. While I like the cleanliness of no pigtails I opted for the qwik latch version which I did not like and would not recommend. I’ve got multiple 2poles without any issues, including a 100amp.
No Afci on the disposals and dishwasher though right?

 

[FlComm]

Even though you have a dual fuel range, I would suggest the 40 amp circuit as mentioned earlier, and I would also put a 120 volt receptacle just in case it ever gets changed to gas only

In my neck of the woods, we put the garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit.

That's a really elaborate kitchen to not have under cabinet lighting

I know we will never change the stove out while we live here so I’ll likely skip the spare outlet. Anything that says the hood and makeup air unit can’t share a circuit:
I need to verify the specs for the DW but I like the idea of a single circuit between it and the GD
We don’t have any upper cabinets only open shelves so no place for under cabinet lighting. This is partly why I moved the recessed lighting closer to offset lack of UC lights and cut down on shadows when working at the counter. Not sure if that makes sense but it seemed like it would when I was researching light designs. Btw the lighting has given me the most stress which is why there are so many. I’m thinking since they are dimmable worst case we just keep them low all the time

 

[Barbqranch]

You have over a dozen lights, nearly 2 dozen if you count the porch. If it were me, I would have a couple of spare fixtures just in case one failed. In a few years you might not be able to get a matching replacement.

 

[Fred B]

.......
No Afci on the disposals and dishwasher though right?

What exception do you see in the code that exempts a DW or disposal from the AFCI requirements for a 1-2 family dwelling unit kitchen on 120V 15 and 20 amp single phase circuit? Most of these that I'm aware of are 120v 15 or 20 amp appliances.

 

[FlComm]

What exception do you see in the code that exempts a DW or disposal from the AFCI requirements for a 1-2 family dwelling unit kitchen on 120V 15 and 20 amp single phase circuit? Most of these that I'm aware of are 120v 15 or 20 amp appliances.

Well i don’t know. I swear I saw that these were exempt from afci but after looking again you appear to be correct
Thanks for calling it out and this is exactly why I posted the design. There was no way I didn’t have something wrong

 

[James L]

Anything that says the hood and makeup air unit can’t share a circuit

I've never seen makeup air in a residential kitchen.

We don’t have any upper cabinets only open shelves so no place for under cabinet lighting. This is partly why I moved the recessed lighting closer to offset lack of UC lights and cut down on shadows when working at the counter. Not sure if that makes sense but it seemed like it would when I was researching light designs. Btw the lighting has given me the most stress which is why there are so many. I’m thinking since they are dimmable worst case we just keep them low all the time

You could still have under cabinet led light strip with floating shelves. If they're hollow enough, have them made with a 3/4" dado and recess aluminum channel. Or you could use a 45° aluminum channel mounted at the wall

I do lots of kitchen work. I typically keep general lighting to a minimum, and increase task lighting

 

[FlComm]

I've never seen makeup air in a residential kitchen.


You could still have under cabinet led light strip with floating shelves. If they're hollow enough, have them made with a 3/4" dado and recess aluminum channel. Or you could use a 45° aluminum channel mounted at the wall

I do lots of kitchen work. I typically keep general lighting to a minimum, and increase task lighting

Florida code calls for any hood over 400cfm to have a makeup air system and ours will be 600 to 1100 per the range recommendations. While my 1983 built home is no where near sealed well enough for negative pressure to be a real concern I prefer the better safe than sorry method. Plus If we go to sell it’s 1 less item for an inspector to nitpick

We looked hard at the led strips in the shelves as they are mitered and wrapped versions from our cabinet guy so it is an option. Wmay still go that way but as of now the wife is leaning to “not” going this route. Personally I’m all ‘80s and want full RGBW strips but she’s not feelin it. Gotta love the blue lights man.
With your experience what’s your take on my light layouts? Sounds like you may have other thoughts if it was yours

 

[James L]

We looked hard at the led strips in the shelves ..... as of now the wife is leaning to “not” going this route. Personally I’m all ‘80s and want full RGBW strips but she’s not feelin it.

I would put the led strips if it were mine. If you like color changing, you could go RGBW so you have a regular white setting. You can get nice controllers, too.

With your experience what’s your take on my light layouts? Sounds like you may have other thoughts if it was yours

Like I said, I would go less on the general lighting and more on the task lighting. You can go with fewer fixtures with higher lumens, 1,000-1,200 lumens One thing to consider is the beam angle of an LED trim. They cast wide

In the enclose porch, I would have only one row of can lights, and minimize general lighting in kitchen (orange). That area looks to be only about 10 feet wide, and 2 rows is a bit much imo

I would keep the pendants over the island (blue), but since it is a big prep area, I would add 4 spot lights (green). You can get some 3" or 4" narrow beam angle gimbals so you don't cast shadows from the pendants, and they're directional in case you want to optimize light spread.

Over sink area I would put 2 more gimbal spots (green) to give light straight down.

If your hood has lights in it, no can light right over it. It's just a big shadow on the stove

 

[rambojoe]

Keep egress and function in mind for things like the accent lights above the island and u/c's...for instance you could drop the island lights from the 3gang and move it closer to the unchanged hallway...i love using my undercabs for late-night nite lites so i like them switched closest to the bdrms/hallway- which would be a good spot to combine the other accents and free up the general overheads (especially for dimmers and possibly covered patio fans and such)
The great room could also use a switch out of the unchanged hallway as well.
Other than that, i always like to consider outside switching (garden,waterfeatures, whatever) from the sink, but it seems unpractical since there is two rooms between the kit. and outside...just something to consider. If you folks love cooking and hosting, dont skimp on countertop space, like inbetween the kit and covered patio...id go deep as possible there...

 

[rambojoe]

I would also consider dropping a few overhead cans as well...
You nailed the placement for low shadows but as far as a lite over each station it turns into overkill after the fact...as others said, lay out the same number towards the greatroom as is towards the patio....it always looks more tidy laying out for complete illumination and equal distances and numbers on the ceiling...

 

[FlComm]

I’ve been meaning to get back into this but between work and the actual remodel work it’s been a busy weekend

I would put the led strips if it were mine. If you like color changing, you could go RGBW so you have a regular white setting. You can get nice controllers, too.



Like I said, I would go less on the general lighting and more on the task lighting. You can go with fewer fixtures with higher lumens, 1,000-1,200 lumens One thing to consider is the beam angle of an LED trim. They cast wide

In the enclose porch, I would have only one row of can lights, and minimize general lighting in kitchen (orange). That area looks to be only about 10 feet wide, and 2 rows is a bit much imo

I would keep the pendants over the island (blue), but since it is a big prep area, I would add 4 spot lights (green). You can get some 3" or 4" narrow beam angle gimbals so you don't cast shadows from the pendants, and they're directional in case you want to optimize light spread.

Over sink area I would put 2 more gimbal spots (green) to give light straight down.

If your hood has lights in it, no can light right over it. It's just a big shadow on the stove

I took your recommendations to the wife and after getting deeper into it we both like the idea of fewer lights than the insane amount (her words) I had. And while the gimbal lights aren’t her first choice since she really wants a clean look on the ceiling she does agree with the idea of them.
I may still push the downlights closer to the counter edge per my original placement but that is really based on my meeting with our cabinet fabricator and ability to integrate LED strips or LED tape into the floating shelves.
Any recommendations on an LED strips for this application that you’ve used? I feel like what I keep finding is off brand with obnoxious controllers and transformers.

If I keep the porch lights inline with the kitchen, which makes sense, I may bump up to a single row of 5 in that room to stay equal to the kitchen and dump 1 more on the right hand end

Keep egress and function in mind for things like the accent lights above the island and u/c's...for instance you could drop the island lights from the 3gang and move it closer to the unchanged hallway...i love using my undercabs for late-night nite lites so i like them switched closest to the bdrms/hallway- which would be a good spot to combine the other accents and free up the general overheads (especially for dimmers and possibly covered patio fans and such)
The great room could also use a switch out of the unchanged hallway as well.
Other than that, i always like to consider outside switching (garden,waterfeatures, whatever) from the sink, but it seems unpractical since there is two rooms between the kit. and outside...just something to consider. If you folks love cooking and hosting, dont skimp on countertop space, like inbetween the kit and covered patio...id go deep as possible there...

We went back and forth on the island pendant switches and settled on the 3 gang location shown since our master bedroom entry was along that route so it worked for those late night trips to the fridge. Of course we did not have under shelf lights so if we go that route this may change
The sink area is a full peninsula from the wall left which has a 14” overhang to serve as a bar & eating so hopefully between it and the island we have enough counter space for me and my 5 friends to hangout

We’ve made a few other revisions so I need to update the CAD with those and the suggestions here and I’ll upload again for further feedback and maybe help for others

 

[James L]

....meeting with our cabinet fabricator and ability to integrate LED strips or LED tape into the floating shelves.

it's easy enough. They can cut a dado to match the width of an aluminum channel. You just need your wires stubbed out. Whatever you do, do NOT daisy-chain your strips. Run a separate cable for each strip section, no matter how small

Any recommendations on an LED strips for this application that you’ve used? I feel like what I keep finding is off brand with obnoxious controllers and transformers.

Yes. Have you thought about single color vs. RGB vs. RGB CCT?

Single color is absolutely easier

If I keep the porch lights inline with the kitchen, which makes sense, I may bump up to a single row of 5 in that room to stay equal to the kitchen and dump 1 more on the right hand end

I looked at my suggestions on the drawing, and wanted to slap myself. Over your island I have the cans almost right on top of the gimbals

Let me draw it in the morning with 2 less. Believe me, you can cut 2 out and be just fine.