Kitchen Floor Receptacles

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bphgravity

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1. Can receptacle outlets be installed face-up on the floor of a kitchen?

2. Shall these receptacles be served by the small appliance circuits?

3. Shall these receptacles be GFCI protected?
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

1)Certainly.

2)Permitted not required.

3)Permitted not required.

JMO, Bob

[ July 23, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

1. Can receptacle outlets be installed face-up on the floor of a kitchen?

2. Shall these receptacles be served by the small appliance circuits?

3. Shall these receptacles be GFCI protected?

To question #1 why not other than poor choice what article says you can't
#2 i can't see anyway they can not be SA CIRCUITS
# 3 They do not serve counter so no
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

I would have to say that they have to be on a 20 amp. circuit,gfci protected NO,not counter top recps. unless they are to be a feed for a portable island then well a gray area.As far as allowed yes As long as a listed floor box assy.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Hello Charlie,

I wouldn't! I am just looking at the proposed wording of 210.52(B)(1) of the NEC 2005. They have inserted the words "wall and floor". It just made me curious to how others would handle the issue if a homeowner or builder insisted on kitchen floor receptacles. :cool:
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

start with 210.11 c 1 requires 2 or more small appliance circuits for 210.52 b
210.52 b says the SA circuits must supply supply ALL RECEPTACLES OUTLETS covered by 210.52 a and c
only A applies if on floor.
It still falls under SA just that they won't be counted as serving wall unless within 18 inches.
Bottom line is yes you can have them but they are still SA outlets.GFCI not needed.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Jim if they are in addition to the required outlets they do not have to be 20 amp.

In other words wire the kitchen to code, then add the floor outlet(s) it would be additional to the required outlets and could be a GP circuit.

I was convinced of this in a long and heated debate on this very issue a few months back.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Bob i only see a few exceptions under 210.52 b 1
The only way i see it permitted is if they were switched.Where do you see it being allowed if not switched ? I see them as being used as S A outlets.What article are you using to say they can be general lighting?
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Jim I felt like you do now, but after beating this around with almost everyone in the forum I have changed my mind.

I have to admit I was going by the "We have always done it that way" rule. :eek: :D
Dining Room Receptacles

Here is quote from the Man himself Mike Holt, I guess he got tired of our arguing after 5 pages of posts. :D

Originally posted by mike@mikeholt.com:
Guys, let me try to clear this up.
No. 1. Recptacles are required in the dinning room of a dwelling unit in accordance with 210.52(A).
No. 2. These receptacles shall be supplied by one of the two required small appliance circuits [210.52(B)(1) and 210.11(C)(1).
No. 3. Section 210.52(B)(3), recognizes that additional small appliance circuits (above the 2 required) shall be permitted to supply receptacles in kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit.

But the NEC does not specify that receptacles above those required by 210.52(A), are required to be on the small appliance circuit.

So once you have meet the NEC for the required receptacles, you can add additional receptacles and this can be on a 15A circuit.
Click to expand...
Mike's quote came from here

Bob
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Guys.Guys,Guys,with that logic any receptacles to meet spacing are not required to be on a 20 amp. circuit.No way would my inspectors allow that.If in a kitchen,nook,or dining area 20 amp no if ands or buts unless used for lighting.The only use a floor recep. in a kitchen would be used would be for a portable islandto plug into_Or am I wrong ?
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

No way am I going back to that thread! :D I think for the first time I disagree with you Bob. My thoughts are the NEC is a minimum. I don't think the point is do what is required then you can do whatever the hell you want. The fact that they actually tell you what you can use a 15 amp circuit for in the kitchen, (switched receptacles for lighting, or refrigeration equipment receptacles), makes it pretty clear that all other receptacles are required to be fed from 20 amp circuits.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

After carefully reading 210.52 b 1
I must agree with Bob.
No i do not believe NEC intended to allow these floor or OTHER than REQUIRED RECEPTACLES to be on a lighting circuit,but fact is they said all REQUIRED RECEPTACLES on SA.These receptacles over the REQUIRED could be on any general purpose circuit.
I do believe this was an over site and poor wording.If they intended this to be ok they did not need to put exception #1 in the code because it was already covered.
No way would i ever offer this to an inspector and am glad i am not an inspector that would need to make this call.
As often seen the NEC uses poor wording sometimes and it gets miss used.
Interesting point is this same loop hole did not happen with arc faults or gfci

[ July 25, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

I have to agree with Scott on this as why does 210.52(B)(1) only allow a switch receptacle to be supplied from a GP circuit. What does not make any sense is that they added the exception for refrigeration equipment to be supplied from a dedicated 15 amp circuit, but not dishwasher's or disposals or any other equipment that could easily be supplied from a 15 amp dedicated circuit/receptacle?

And the fact that the wording says shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)( wall space required receptacles ) and (C) ( counter space required receptacles ) Only confuses it because then why would they make an exception for refrigeration equipment since it is already dedicated space and not covered in 210.52(A) or (C)?

What this is saying to me is that any receptacle outlet circuit in a kitchen has to be a 20 amp S/A circuit with the only exception of refrigeration equipment. This would also mean that all other dedicated appliances in a kitchen if supplied from a receptacle outlet would also have to be supplied from a 20 amp circuit.

I think the key wording here is (receptacle outlet) as this would also the same in a bathroom if you had a dedicated circuit to a hard wired appliance it would be allowed on a 15 amp circuit. But if it was a plug and cord connected we all agree that it would have to be GFCI protected and 210.11(C)(3) would require it to be a 20 amp circuit, as the exception points you to 210.23(A) which has an exception that requires that these circuits only supply those receptacles.

Talk about a run around.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

It maybe a difference between intent and what is actually written in the code. :p

I would have a hard time selling this to inspectors but I can not argue with Mike H. he has a bit more experience than most with the NEC. :cool:
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Could you take 210.23(A) exception to be saying that it, with the context of the other articles as saying that these circuits (S/A and Bathroom) are require to be the only ones to supply these receptacles?

Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (2), and (3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section .
Click to expand...
Yes problem bad wording on NFPA's part but after following through all the reference sections this is the last stop they send you to.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

added the exception for refrigeration equipment to be supplied from a dedicated 15 amp circuit, but not dishwasher's or disposals or any other equipment
Click to expand...
Where does the code say dishwashers and disposals have to be on 20 amp circuits? :confused:
 
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