Kitchen Gfic

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ceb

ceb

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raeford,nc
I ran into a buddy who wants me to come look at his kitchen gfic's. He then told me what is going on and I need some other ideas befor I tear his home apart. Here it is, when he turns on the jets in his outdoor hot tub both s/a gfic's trip out. This guy built his home about 2 years ago he is very knolageable in the trades but freely admits he wont touch the electrical part the home was wired by some one who had been in the trade for 35 years untill his death. what he has is a 400 amp service, 2 200 amp panels in basement, hot tub is about 50ft away on deck. kitchen gfic's are fed from panel A hot tub is feed from panel B to a spa disconnect at tub every thing is fine in kitchen untill he starts the jets, he said he went as far as unpluging every thing on the 2 circuets and trying it and same thing happened. What could be going on?
 
Is it possible that a loose neutral double barrel connection in the meter base is causing a inbalance in the devices ???Causing them to trip out.The queer part is that they are in 2 seperate panels that is why i asked this.There has to be a common denominator and the meter would be that common denominator.?????
 
I'd look for a situation where the circuits are running close or even crossing each other - as induced emf could be a possibility.

Are the neutrals isolated on the subpanels? You say there are two panels, but how are they configured - are each subpanels? Again, let us know how the EGC, Neutral and Grounding Electrode Conductors are configured.

Brett
 
I would think you're probably going to find a floaty neutral somewhere in the system, altho I confess I hadn't considered EMF, if there's sever bundling going on, it's a possibility.
 
I don?t understand a portion of your description of the problem.

First, I would ask you if you can confirm that the required ?two or more? small appliance circuits are presently feeding no outlets other than the outlets they are allowed to serve. If not, I would put that first on my troubleshooting plan.

For now, let?s presume that no ?extra? outlets are on the S/A circuits. Can you tell me how the kitchen GFCIs are set up? Are they fed by a GFCI breaker, and is it the breaker that trips? Do you have a GFCI receptacle at each outlet in the kitchen? Are there two GFCI receptacles from which the load side feeds the remaining countertop receptacles?

Exactly what is tripping, and how do you know (i.e., the button pops out and you have to push the reset)?

Next, let me ask you to explain the statement that he had unplugged everything on the two circuits. Please note that receptacles in the dining room and other rooms can be fed from the same circuits as kitchen countertop receptacles. Did he really unplug everything in the house, or just everything in the kitchen?

If starting the hot tub jets caused a trip of a GFCI receptacle with nothing plugged into it, AND WITH nothing plugged into a downstream receptacle, then I must conclude that the GFCI device(s) is(are) faulty.
 
CEB - can you provide some feedback on Chalie B's questions. I'm realy curious how your problem shakes out. I find things like this very interesting, and I think we can all learn something for "issues" like this one.

Thanks,

Brett
 
OK, answers to questions. the panels are fed from the meter base both net. luged together the two panels are the main panels not subs net. and grnd. bonded. The electricain died of heart problems( not related to self electricution) The gfci are recp. not breakers yes he isolated every thing on the two s/a circ. unpluged every thing related to these circ. turned on the jets and BOTH buttons poped. the kitchen gfci recp. are the only ones this effects, bath ok, outside ok. as far as bad gfci I dont think so I ask the same question no problem with any small app. works like it should untill you turn on the jets in the hot tub. It is a puzzle why Both gfci's trip when the tub is started
 
What does this mean - "the panels are fed from the meter base both net." - specifically why is the word "net" in the sentence? You also have it in the next sentence, and in both cases it makes no sense to me. Is it network abbreviated - if so, it would still not make sense?

You also didn't answer Charlie B's question, as to absolutely verifying that no other outlets were wired - beyond the S/A outlets in the kitchen. You say that everyting was unplugged from the appiance circuits - but was that just because you or the HO (don't know who did the experiment) assumed that only the kitchen outlets are fed. Did someone stick an Amprobe on that circuit and absolutely verify there was no current on it?

Another thing - did someone verify the GFCI receptacle and the rest of the circuits it protects are absolutely wired correctly - and that's both circuits?

THanks,

Brett
 
Ok we can assume the SA been working for 2 years and i dought both went bad.How long has hot tub been there ? Could it have a bad neutral or ground throwing a spike into the system.If tub is not new to system then check for connections at panel and tub.
 
I keep thinking that it is a neutral problem.Emf from a bundling condition is an interesting theory.But something keeps telling me it is a neutral problem.I would look at the double lug for the neutral in the meter base,since both circuits are in two different panels.That makes the meter the common denominator.I doubt 2 gfci devices went bad at the same time.This is an interesting problem and want to know when you isolate the cause.I love troubleshooting and a situation like this intrigues me.
 
JimW - great question. I was thinking the same thing when I first read it - but immediately started firing follow-up questions. Very key to understand if it ever was "right".
 
My first question: Are the jet motors 120V? If so, then, IMHO, there is an improper connection of grounded conductors that is causing current to flow on parallel paths, one of which runs through the two GFCI's. I would start at the jets and work backwards disassembling j-boxes and tracing the circuits until I find it! Somewhere along the way, I bet I would find a grounded conductor from those gfci's that is nutted together with another grounded conductor home run and causing the parallel path issue that is tripping the gfci's
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
My first question: Are the jet motors 120V? If so, then, IMHO, there is an improper connection of grounded conductors that is causing current to flow on parallel paths, one of which runs through the two GFCI's. I would start at the jets and work backwards disassembling j-boxes and tracing the circuits until I find it! Somewhere along the way, I bet I would find a grounded conductor from those gfci's that is nutted together with another grounded conductor home run and causing the parallel path issue that is tripping the gfci's
Click to expand...

If that was the case then it would be on the line side of the device(s),you could and do have a grounded neutral on all device(s) from the MBR and that wouldn`t trip the gfci device(s).I still say it could be a loose neutral,but I am at a loss as to why the bath and house devices are holding.I`ve seen some really strange things while troubleshooting homes.I take it in increments.#1 like Jim said did it ever work.#2 what is actually happening,with a load without a load,as in this case is the wiring for the jetted tub in close proximity to the wiring for the affected gfci circuits,are they routed together(could be a pressure short or a cabinet screw between them)
I once saw a circuit that would trip only after the sun came up.True !!!!
Why? As it turned out after the sun came up it would heat up the wall where a trim carpenter had shot a finish nail into a piece of 3 wire for a switched receptacle.The heat caused the nail to expand causing the short.One of our supervisors had been to this home time and time again and when he left the circuit would hold.A mile down the road the circuit would trip.I found it with a toner.We got the circuit to hold and following the path of the NM along the baseboard with a toner no signal generator just the probe,when I passed over the area of the short the probe buzzed like mad.Cut open the drwall and there it was.
Troubleshooting is something you learn from experience not a text book.Murhys law ( what can go wrong will )
 
Allenwayne - I'm interested in hearing more about this "toner". Care to share some more info? I love TS, and this sounds like something I need to become more familiar with - and it sounds like a new "toy" I should have in the arsenal.

THanks
 
ceb said:
. . . (he) turned on the jets and BOTH buttons popped.
Click to expand...
That tells me that there are outlets (i.e., lights or receptacles or smoke detectors or some item related to the hot tub) that are powered from the load side of the GFCI receptacles. It cannot be otherwise. A GFCI receptacle can not trip, unless the current leaving it on the hot leg does not equal the current returning to it on the neutral. If there is nothing plugged into the GFCI receptacle itself, and if it trips, then there must be loads downstream of the GFCI. You can locate them by manually tripping the GFCIs, and looking around the house for loads that do not have power.

Since you haven?t said what would have been an obvious thing to say, I have to infer that after the GFCIs pop, the hot tub motor continues to run. That means the hot tub itself (or at least this one motor) is not powered via the kitchen GFCI receptacles. So my next troubleshooting step would be to disconnect the load side of the GFCI receptacles that have had their buttons pop, and start the hot tub motor again. If the GFCIs do not pop, as I suspect they won?t, then the problem lies in one or more of the items that are powered by the load side of the GFCI.
 
charlie b said:
... A GFCI receptacle can not trip, unless the current leaving it on the hot leg does not equal the current returning to it on the neutral. If there is nothing plugged into the GFCI receptacle itself, and if it trips, then there must be loads downstream of the GFCI.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily.

A GFCI will also trip if the "protected" neutral (i.e. the neutral on the load side) contacts the ground.

This occurs even if there is zero load (i.e. nothing connected to the protected "line" terminal)

I just tested this feature myself on both brand new and 6+ years-in-service GFCIs.

[Test involved jumpering between the GFCI recepticle's neutral -- after first testing for mis-wiring -- and the faceplate screw. All GFCIs tested had a properly connected EGC landing at the panel ground]

Fairchild Semiconductor has an interesting description of their detection device's "inner workings" at:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/RV%2FRV4141A.pdf#search=%22fairchild%20semiconductor%20GFCI%22
 
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