Kitchen Gfic

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NoVA Comms Power said:
Not necessarily.

A GFCI will also trip if the "protected" neutral (i.e. the neutral on the load side) contacts the ground.
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I think Charlie's point is that if there is no load nor any load wiring connected to the GFCI receptacle, it will not trip due to any line side occurance.
 
jim dungar said:
I think Charlie's point is that if there is no load nor any load wiring connected to the GFCI receptacle, it will not trip due to any line side occurance.
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I agree.

My only point is that they can trip -- w/o any load -- from neutral-ground problems on the "protected" side.

After re-reading this thread, it's still not completely clear to me that these two GFCI's are indeed at the "end of the line" and that there's not additional "protected wiring" further-on.

I tend to think -- as other have already posted -- that that neutral-to-ground issues are somehow the root cause of this particular problem.
 
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NoVA
You are thinking along the same lines as me. My point was similar to yours. To summarize, I believe it is quite likely the branch circuit feeding the jet motors and the branch circuit on the load side of those GFCI's have ended up in a common j-box somewhere and the grounded (neutral) conductors from both circuits have been nutted together inadvertently. This would allow part of the neutral current to return on each path thereby creating an imbalance within both GFCI recepts and tripping them instantly!

As I said earlier, I would start at the motors and work backwards tracing the circuits until I find that one j-box with the offensive wirenut!!!
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
... As I said earlier, I would start at the motors and work backwards tracing the circuits until I find that one j-box with the offensive wirenut!!!
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I think almost eveybody here would like to roll-up their sleeves and "take-on" this one themselves too. (I know I would)

T-shooting IS after all, fun !
 
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Yeah! Solving one of these puzzles makes me feel like Ralphie after he defeated Black Bart with his Daisey Red Rider Range Model Air Rifle... with the compass in the stock!!!!! :)
 
LarryFine said:
How did the electrician die?
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Well done, Larry. I about hit the floor when I read that, because the same question crossed my mind. :D

After a quick skim, I'd say the hot tub is dumping neutral current into the SABC's load side. But it was a very quick skim. :)
 
I think it's time to arrange a "field trip" and we can all brain storm at "the scene of the crime" (and I am glad that CEB verified the death wasn't electrocution). Should have it T/S and buttoned up by noon - leaving the afternoon to shoot some beers.

CEB - where do we all meet up?

Brett
 
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I have only ran wiring to a few hot tubs, but if memory serves they were all on gfci breakers.
If thats the case here the fact that the hot tub isn't tripping might rule out mixed neutrals?
 
Perhaps this is too simple, but why not remove the GFCI's from the wall and measure voltage between the neutral on the line side and on the load side?

Anything other than 0.00 means y'all are right.

I'm putting my money on current being induced in the load side of the kitchen wiring when the pump motors start. If he resets the tripped GFCI's after the motors are running, do they trip again? If they don't retrip with the motors running, do they trip when he turns the motors off?
 
Charlie stated that he/she remove the LOAD sided wiring and then start up the jetted tub to see if the affected GFCI`S pop.If they dont then it is on the Load side of the system.If they do it`s on the line side.A line sided GFCI will not pop at all since the neutral to ground fault is on the line side.But instinct tells me that if it is on the line side and it still pops the device then it is a loose neutral on the line side.But I am befuddled as to why it pops 2 devices on start up of the tub and not other GFCI`S in the home.EMF could be the culprit I`ve suspected EMF causing smokes to go off in homes,but I`ve found that if there is a neutral to ground fault on the load side of a device it will pop without a load so that takes the neutral to ground on the load side out of the picture.A neutral to ground fault on the line side will not pop the device so that leaves the neutral as the culprit or a short between the conductors of these circuits IE: neutral and ground on the load side of the devices.This is an interesting situation and personnaly I would love to be in on the troubleshooting of this problem:)
 
Charlie didn't say the WIRES were removed from the load side, only that everything that was plugged in to the presumptive outlets on the load side was removed. This still leaves the possibility that it's a funky neutral or EMF.
 
Tallgirl, welcome to the forum. We're up to three girls now. :D

tallgirl said:
Perhaps this is too simple, but why not remove the GFCI's from the wall and measure voltage between the neutral on the line side and on the load side?

Anything other than 0.00 means y'all are right.
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I think you meant measure for continuity between line and load neutrals?

I'm putting my money on current being induced in the load side of the kitchen wiring when the pump motors start.
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I believe that would be a very tall order. I can't imagine a circuit with 5 mA of current induced onto it's neighbor, myself. Have you actually seen this occur?
 
georgestolz said:
Tallgirl, welcome to the forum. We're up to three girls now. :D


I think you meant measure for continuity between line and load neutrals?
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Egads, no! You might fry your continuity tester if there's any amount of voltage on that line. Put a voltmeter between the line and load neutrals from the GFCI outlet with the spa pump running. If there's neutral current flowing it will show up.


I believe that would be a very tall order. I can't imagine a circuit with 5 mA of current induced onto it's neighbor, myself. Have you actually seen this occur?
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I've never seen a GFCI tripped by a spa pump being turned on, if that's the question. I have seen induced currents, tho.

What would be interesting is knowing where the wires for the kitchen SABC's are relative to the wires going to the spa.
 
tallgirl said:
I've never seen a GFCI tripped by a spa pump being turned on, if that's the question. I have seen induced currents, tho.
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Can you describe the circumstances behind this event?

Essentially, you're saying that the induced voltage could be so great that it could actually carry a load. Generally, induced voltages vanish under load. I cannot picture a scenario where this could happen.
 
georgestolz said:
Can you describe the circumstances behind this event?

Essentially, you're saying that the induced voltage could be so great that it could actually carry a load. Generally, induced voltages vanish under load. I cannot picture a scenario where this could happen.
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Unless I missed something, this happens when there is no load. Not only is there no load, but they unplugged everything that could have been a load.

Remember, also, that induced currents are related to the time-rate change in the field that's inducing the current. As I understand it, this happens when the pump motors are turned on, but not otherwise. Since, presumably, the spa has other loads (heater, lights, etc) that don't create the same time-rate change in load when they are turned on or just left on, an induced current is still my best guess. This is why I asked what happens if the GFCI is reset after the pumps are running. If it's a neutral problem, I'd assume the GFCI's would trip again while the pumps are still running since the (hypothetical) neutral problem would still exist. I'd also assume the GFCI's would possibly trip again when the pumps are turned off.
 
Seeing that it is 2 GFCIs that trip I don't accept that the tub neutral is sharing with the load side of the GFCI's. That would mean it would need to be connected to both, so they are connected to each other. That would make the GFCIs trip on any load on the SA circuits, which isn't happening.
 
one question- are the tripping (kitchen) GFI's the same type as the rest of the house?
Maybe they are more susceptible to the possible neutral problem mentioned earlier. I'd try swapping one of them out with a different gfi...
 
paul32 said:
Seeing that it is 2 GFCIs that trip I don't accept that the tub neutral is sharing with the load side of the GFCI's. That would mean it would need to be connected to both, so they are connected to each other. That would make the GFCIs trip on any load on the SA circuits, which isn't happening.
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They would trip with out a load.Just try and have a circuit on the load side of a device connect to another circuit without a load and it will trip out as soon as power is applied.I`m sticking with a probale floating neutral on the line side as the cause,but still wonder why the other gfci devices are holding.This is a good one hope we get an answer soon as far as the cause goes.
 
Tallgirl, I don't get what you're saying at all.

Let's say that the conductors for all three circuits (2 kit, 1 spa) are all running the same way in close contact in romex. Let's say that the spa is inducing voltage onto the load side of the kitchen GFI's somehow. Could you describe a circuit path that results in a tripped GFI?
 
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