kitchen island outlets

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: kitchen island outlets

Again, for the record, I wish there was not a requirement to have an island receptacle.

However, the argument against it based upon a child pulling over a hot pot doesn't hold much water with me. (No pun intended.) Anyone concerned with a child pulling down a pot by a draping cord should just restrain from using said pot on an island. I don't hear any arguments advocating fewer lighting receptacles in case a child should stick something into one. Parents take measures against those actions by using child-proof plates or caps. Parents use locks on cabinet doors to keep children from harmful chemicals. Common sense and awareness will prevent more accidents than code regulations in many situations.

I'm not trying to sound insensitive, but the receptacle placement did not cause the accident(s) described earlier. An error in judgement did.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by iwire:
Even with the most careful parents bad things happen to children.
Click to expand...
Exactly. To say that a parent is at fault for not watching their child is just unrealistic. Anybody with kids should know what I mean.

And again this is only part of my argument.

[ November 18, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Scott you said

"I will continue to not install them if the customer wishes."

This places you and your family at risk .
Why ?
Because you own the work you preform even after those good folks who did not want the receptacle have moved away.
If the next people run a cord across and a similar event were to happen , you'll be explaining why you failed to meet the minimum requirements of the NEC.
And it would be a safe bet that you will loose the argument.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by iwire:
Even with the most careful parents bad things happen to children.
Click to expand...
I totally agree. I just don't believe that a receptacle is to blame in aforementioned situation. Definitely just an unfortunate accident.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by j_erickson:
I just don't believe that a receptacle is to blame in aforementioned situation. Definitely just an unfortunate accident.
Click to expand...
Well it is hard for an inanimate object to be blamed for any accident.

That said we put handrails on stairs to prevent accidents because we humans make mistakes.

IMO an outlet below the counter top to serve counter top appliances is in fact an accident waiting to happen. It is like the NEC is requireing a booby trap for kids. :)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by j_erickson:
Originally posted by iwire:
Even with the most careful parents bad things happen to children.
Click to expand...
I totally agree. I just don't believe that a receptacle is to blame in aforementioned situation. Definitely just an unfortunate accident.
Click to expand...
Accident , an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally , typically resulting in damage or injury .

They happen all the time.

The second leading cause of death for children under the age of 14 in this country is drowning in swimming pools.
If you average the total number of deaths, for the year 2000, it was about 9 people every day.

Is that the electricians fault as well ?

No, life is full of risk.
Swimming in a pool is fun.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
The second leading cause of death for children under the age of 14 in this country is drowning in swimming pools.
If you average the total number of deaths, for the year 2000, it was about 9 people every day.

Is that the electricians fault as well ?
Click to expand...
Marc that is a ridiculous question that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

I also have never said it was the electricians fault for following the NEC as written.

What I have been saying and will continue to say is that IMO the CMP charged with this decision has made the wrong choice in the interest of safety.

Your basic argument is accidents happen so there is nothing that can be done to make them less frequent.

Continuing with that line of reasoning we do not need an outlet at the island at all.

[ November 19, 2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by iwire:

Kids love to grab things like hanging cords and the result of that innocent fascination can be tragic.

If the NEC wants to insist on island receptacles IMO they should be required to be on or above the counter.
Click to expand...
My point is that poeople do not have to use that island receptacle, they choose to. They could certainly move whatever appliance they are using on the island to the main countertop. That's probably better in theory than in practice. Even better, they could choose a design which allows receptacle above the counter. We see that much more frequently in the last 5 years.

I do agree though that by placing a receptacle below the counter we are enabling the creation of a dangerous situation. I feel that the dangerous situation is avoidable, but in hindsight, most are. I also agree with the statement that if receptacle is required, then should be on ot above countertop.

As a side note, my kitchen, built 10 years ago, has both an island and peninsula. Neither has a receptacle. ;)

Passed inspection.

How about an exception to the requiement? Such as "if building design affords the ability to add a receptacle in the future, this receptacle can be ommitted." That way a homeowner who wants a receptacle can have it, those who don't will not. I've had many customers who want to make sure they have an island receptacle. I know this would never fly, but just a thought. If there were a j-box in an island ready to go for a future receptacle, wouldn't everyone be happy? I guess until homeowner 1 doesn't want it, next buyer installs it, third buyer doesn't want it...back to dangerous situation.

Seems like we need documented substantiated information on which scenario has caused more accidents, with proposal for 2011.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Bob , my point is the relation to the electrician is the same.
However, if the electrician decides to not put the required outlet and someone gets hurt because the occupant drapes an extension cord , the relation to the electrician will be dramatically different.

My message is , protect yourself first.
If you have a conflict with this requirement work towards a change.
In the mean time the receptacle outlet is required , while not installing it may be a noble act to some , it will make for a poor defense of your actions in a court room
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Scott you said

"I will continue to not install them if the customer wishes."

This places you and your family at risk .
Why ?
Because you own the work you preform even after those good folks who did not want the receptacle have moved away.
If the next people run a cord across and a similar event were to happen , you'll be explaining why you failed to meet the minimum requirements of the NEC.
And it would be a safe bet that you will loose the argument.
Click to expand...
Marc I really don't worry about things like that on a day to day basis. I do agree with you however. But...I think we both know that if you do install the recptacle and something does happen you will also be screwed. The code is not going to save your *** form hungry lawyers. That is the reality of the society we live in.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Marc I really don't worry about things like that on a day to day basis. I do agree with you however. But...I think we both know that if you do install the recptacle and something does happen you will also be screwed. The code is not going to save your *** form hungry lawyers. That is the reality of the society we live in.
Click to expand...
If you have complied with the code there is nothing that you can be sued for. If you do not comply ther is a lot that you can be sued for.
:)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by jwelectric:
If you have complied with the code there is nothing that you can be sued for. If you do not comply ther is a lot that you can be sued for.
:)
Click to expand...
:)

[ November 19, 2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

its thanksgiving day, and here come all the relatives with various dishes to share with the family. some in crock pots or other warming containers. counter quickly become filled. but, there is some space on the island. the kids are running, jumping and throwing stuff at eachother. half the adults are trying to watch the game, while the other half are trying to get the first half to take out the trash.

if there is an outlet on the island then the cord is gonna hand down a bit over the side. if not, then a cord is gonna be slung across the room. which poses more of a hazzard?
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by jwelectric:
If you have complied with the code there is nothing that you can be sued for. If you do not comply ther is a lot that you can be sued for.
:)
Click to expand...
I would be sued, as would the "Code", the town officials that signed the permit, the cabinet installer, the receptacle manufacturer, the whatever was plugged in manufacturer, and anybody else you can think of.

In the halls of justice there is no justice, right OJ. :eek:
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Good luck Scott.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
With what? :confused:
Click to expand...
With applying your understanding of the responsibility one takes for performing electrical work for hire in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

You said it yourself in a slightly different way,

We are a litigious society.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top