kitchen island outlets

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Re: kitchen island outlets

Scott
Other than complaining and not following a code because you do not like it or think it is safe, what are you trying to do to resolve it?
Have you sent any proposals to remedie this situation? Or will you just perpetuate the situation without the proper installation - again- the head in the sand syndrome.


This falls back to what I have said before. Contractor A does not like rule a, contB does not like rule b, etc... so when all is said and done we do not need to follow any code rules as who cares......... this leads to chaos and that is why inspectors have to inspect to the rules, not personal beliefs.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Scott,

I completely agree with your opinion that it is a ridiculous requirement to have an island receptacle. I wish that this was not a requirement.

However, I also agree that inspectors should enforce the island receptacle requirement as long as it is in the code. (Although I previously stated that I might overlook it.) If every inspector strictly enforced it, the kitchen designers would quickly consider the placement of a receptacle in their design, and it would not be such a hot issue. Required receptacle in a discreet location, probably never used, problem solved. Maybe :)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

article 210.52 (c)(2)
"where a range top or sink is installed in an island counter and the width of the counter behind the rangetop or sink is less than 12"."
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

otherwise it isn't an NEC requirment. Please correct me if I am wrong. It wont be enforced in my neck of the woods unless it meets this criteria. :confused:
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

210.52(C)
(2) Island Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. Where a rangetop or sink is installed in an island counter and the width of the counter behind the rangetop or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the rangetop or sink is considered to divide the island into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4).

(3) Peninsular Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
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As a contractor I take this out of the hands of the inspector and install the required receptacle(s) before I call for an inspection.
I simply tell the home owner and the general that one WILL be installed as mandated by the NEC. :D

The installation of an electrical system is the responsibility of the electrical contractor. I understand the desire of the electrician to please the homeowner and general contractor but also know that in doing so we make it hard on the inspectors and other electrical contractors.

I bought me a saw that has no conscience and it could care less how much that piece of furniture cost. It will cut me a perfect hole every time and it doesn?t care if the drawer will fit back or not. The receptacle will be installed.

Now to address the thought that a child will pull something off the island by grabbing the cord that is hung over the edge. Could this child not pull something off by grabbing the drop cord that is stretched across the floor? :D
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by LMaloney: Please correct me if I am wrong. It wont be enforced in my neck of the woods unless it meets this criteria.
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I don't follow what you are trying to say.

But suppose an island has a range. Suppose that there is less than 12 inches of counter space on all four sides of the range. I would conclude that that island does not need a receptacle. I would also conclude that this makes sense. With so little actual countertop space on this island, the owner is not likely to need a receptacle to plug in a coffee pot or an electric knife.

On the other hand, if there is no range (or sink) on the island, or if there is at least a 12x24 inch space on either side of the range (or sink), then it becomes more likely that the owner will need to plug in an appliance that is sitting on the island countertop. I would not want the owner to have to run an extension cord across the open space from the island to the "normal" countertop. So I agree with the code requirement. Sorry, Scott. :( :D
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by LMaloney:
article 210.52 (c)(2)
"where a range top or sink is installed in an island counter and the width of the counter behind the rangetop or sink is less than 12"."

otherwise it isn't an NEC requirment. Please correct me if I am wrong. It wont be enforced in my neck of the woods unless it meets this criteria.
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2005 cycle
210.52(C)(2) Island Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. Where a rangetop or sink is installed in an island counter and the width of the counter behind the rangetop or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the rangetop or sink is considered to divide the island into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4).
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As you can see the section of the code that you refer to states that if there is less than 12 inches behind the sink or stove then this island requires two receptacles.

There is no relief from the required receptacle mentioned in the first sentence of this section no matter how much space is behind the sink or range.

Looking at 210.52(C)(1) we see that if the space behind a sink or range on a countertop along a wall is greater that 12 inches then we are required to install a receptacle in this area.
:)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Mike, I think you and I are seeing this the same way (scary, isn't it? :D
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

As I read it, if there is less than 12 inches of space behind the range, then you have two countertop spaces that each need their own receptacle (total of 2 receptacles needed). But if there is more than 12 inches behind the range, then this counts as one countertop space, and only one receptacle is needed.
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Sounds correct to me Charlie.

Trevor
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Mike you are hardcore. I can just see you there fighting off the customer as you chop a hole in the island. :roll:

I made all my points in this thread already so I am not going to type them again.

There have been proposals to change this and they were shot down. I would expect nothing less from the NEC.

This is clearly a case of which hazard do you like better.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

I will, if all parties involved are reasonable, try to be a part of the resolution. I have yet to have one of these situations not resolved. I will say that every time I had a kitchen rough, that was the time I brought up the counter receptacle issue, so they would not say they had no idea at the final - that gives them plenty of time to resolve the issue.
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Pierre, I agree with you 100% on this. This is the time to bring it up and get it resolved. However, that's you. Many AHJ's don't do that and low and behold on the day of kitchen installation there's a surprise for all of us when this new piece of furniture called a decorative island shows up and there's nowhere to install a receptacle.

... do you see my point?
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Point well taken. In all my years I have only come across this one instance where a receptacle could not be installed. All I was trying to say was that you (or any) AHJ, should have the capability of resolving this issue on a local basis (being as how this is a rare instance) by having some type of remedy whereby all parties involved can come to an agreement as opposed to simply stating it is an NEC issue and is required. I think the "variation in the code" thing was a good and fair solution to all parties. The GC got paid,I got paid, the AHJ was off the hook and the customer was happy.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by Electricmanscott
Mike you are hardcore. I can just see you there fighting off the customer as you chop a hole in the island.
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I can promise you that it has happened. The homeowner had an island with a cook top in the center and drawers on both side. The top drawer would not close on either side. I told the homeowner to have the cabinet man make a shorter drawer as the receptacles were required, case closed. :)

Originally posted by Electricmanscott
This is clearly a case of which hazard do you like better.
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It is obvious that the only danger seen by the code panel members is that of a cord stretched across the floor to supply current to a piece of equipment being used on the island.
Where do you see any other danger? :)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

I see the danger of a cord overhanging the island as an equal danger. As I said earlier, it is likely that you would go perform your work that required the use of a receptacle in an area of the kitchen that has a receptacle.
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where do you see any other danger? :)
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Children grabbing at the cord left dangling pulling a coffee pot etc down on them.

This is why home deep fryers now come with 'break away' cords.

IMO it would be tough to determine which is more dangerous. I am inclined to believe that the cord across the floor is a greater hazard.

That said I hate that the NFPA feels they have to make these mundane decisions for homeowners. :roll:
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

The NEC requires the island to have a receptacle. We all agree with this - we just don't all like the idea... believe it or not, I do not like the idea of a kitchen having a cord off the side of a countertop either.

The NEC does not require that the island receptacle be installed below the countertop, it gives relief in permitting it to be installed below the countertop [210.52(C)(5) exception to 5].
So... we need to comply with the NEC where it has been adopted. If in fact it is so hard to install the receptacle below, use an installation procedure that will be above/on the countertop.
End of the cord over the side ;)
 
Re: kitchen island outlets

Maybe we should change the code to require pendant recpticals that hang down over the island.
 
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