kitchen island receptacles

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Is it not a Code violation to mount recpetacles there, but they do not satisfy the requirement for counter-top outlets (see 210.52{C}{5})
 
toe outlet

toe outlet

big vic said:
Can kitchen island receptacles be mounted in the toe space of the cabinets?
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check [210.52(C)(5)]Ex to 5 serving countertops..."not more than 12" below" so if this is some other BC hookup such as under toe space lighting I do not see any 'not permitted' clause. Knowing cabinet toe space construction, it is very labor intensive trying to do a cut-in into the kick trim. Was this what is intended? rbj
 
augie47 said:
Is it not a Code violation to mount receptacles there. . . .
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I think it is. :D But I will mention that this debate has taken place before, and that others have disagreed with this opinion.

Take another look at 210.52(C)(5) and its exception. They tell us where "receptacles" are to be mounted. But they do not limit that instruction to "the required minimum number of receptacles." So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
 
charlie b said:

I think it is. :D But I will mention that this debate has taken place before, and that others have disagreed with this opinion.

Take another look at 210.52(C)(5) and its exception. They tell us where "receptacles" are to be mounted. But they do not limit that instruction to "the required minimum number of receptacles." So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
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Hi Charlie,
I can see where this is questionable. There is no mention of lighting circuits or other BC's not being permitted to have a receptacle in a toe space. This has come up in my past experience some years ago and the AHJ did not have an answer other than "no" or "just because". That was in CA and in a very difficult and strict local code enforced area where we were required to use plastic wall cover screws throughout. rbj
 
charlie b said:
I think it is. :D But I will mention that this debate has taken place before, and that others have disagreed with this opinion.

Take another look at 210.52(C)(5) and its exception. They tell us where "receptacles" are to be mounted. But they do not limit that instruction to "the required minimum number of receptacles." So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
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If you are taking the interpretation that 210.52(C)(5) does not allow any receptacles below 12' from the c'top, then you must also require receps along wall spaces [210.52(A)(1)] to be 12' apart and no closer.
 
Interesting Charlie. I must have slept thru the earlier "discussions", and I won't argue my position here. Admittingly, it can be looked at two ways.
In either event, I think we agree that any such outllets, if permissible and installed, would not be considered as serving the countertop.
 
charlie b said:

I think it is. :D But I will mention that this debate has taken place before, and that others have disagreed with this opinion.

Take another look at 210.52(C)(5) and its exception. They tell us where "receptacles" are to be mounted. But they do not limit that instruction to "the required minimum number of receptacles." So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
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I will have to disagree.:)

210.52(C) is titled countertops. This section and its sub-sections deal with receptacle outlets in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms and similar areas of dwelling units for countertop spaces.

If I install a receptacle not intended for use on a countertop space I don't need to meet the requirements in 210.52(C).

JMHO,

Chris
 
charlie b said:
Take another look at 210.52(C)(5) and its exception. They tell us where "receptacles" are to be mounted. But they do not limit that instruction to "the required minimum number of receptacles." So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
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But, in 210.52(C), it says "receptacles for countertops..." These "extra" receptacles are clearly not "for countertops," so they're allowed.

Chris even agrees with me.
 
210.52 & 210.52(C) both permit and do not restrict the installation of receptacles in the location as described by the OP.


Think of wall space...if the receptacle is above 5'-6", it does not satisfy wall space requirements...does this mean one cannot install receptacles above 5'-6" in dwellings?
 
I see that I am not getting much support for my point of view. That’s a first! :wink: :D

Let me just make a few points, after which you are all welcome to continue to disagree with me.

? Putting a receptacle in the space well below an island or peninsular countertop, and claiming you don’t intend it to serve the countertop, is a stretch. You might as well put an “extra” receptacle in a wall counter space, not protect it with GFCI, and claim it doesn’t have to be GFCI protected because it is not one of the ones required to serve the countertop. It’s there; it counts.

? 210.52(C)(5) tells us not to put receptacles more than 12 inches below the counter. It gives no leeway for “extra” receptacles. It’s there; it counts.

? THE BIG REASON: The difference between this situation and putting a wall receptacle 6 feet above the floor is that it is not dangerous to have a receptacle that high. Nobody is going to trip over a wire plugged into that receptacle. It may be simply inconvenient (unless you have a TV there), but it is not dangerous. However, people are going to work at, or perhaps even sit next to, an island or peninsula countertop area. Putting a receptacle too far below the countertop surface, or putting it under an large overhang, is dangerous. Someone standing or sitting near the countertop is likely to bump into a cord that is plugged in there. That will cause the appliance to fall into their lap or onto their feet. It does not matter if the receptacle is just 13 inches below the countertop, or is at toe kick level. It is dangerous.
 
charlieb, when you "corrected" me in post #4 I saw your point and actually agree :D. I didn't follow thru as I didn't want to dig up old bones, but I think you have a valid argument. In addition to the "Big Reason", I think anytime you have a cord that low you are inviting small ones to pull equipment from the countertop.
 
charlie b said:
I see that I am not getting much support for my point of view. That?s a first! :wink: :D

Let me just make a few points, after which you are all welcome to continue to disagree with me.

? Putting a receptacle in the space well below an island or peninsular countertop, and claiming you don?t intend it to serve the countertop, is a stretch. You might as well put an ?extra? receptacle in a wall counter space, not protect it with GFCI, and claim it doesn?t have to be GFCI protected because it is not one of the ones required to serve the countertop. It?s there; it counts.

? 210.52(C)(5) tells us not to put receptacles more than 12 inches below the counter. It gives no leeway for ?extra? receptacles. It?s there; it counts.

? THE BIG REASON: The difference between this situation and putting a wall receptacle 6 feet above the floor is that it is not dangerous to have a receptacle that high. Nobody is going to trip over a wire plugged into that receptacle. It may be simply inconvenient (unless you have a TV there), but it is not dangerous. However, people are going to work at, or perhaps even sit next to, an island or peninsula countertop area. Putting a receptacle too far below the countertop surface, or putting it under an large overhang, is dangerous. Someone standing or sitting near the countertop is likely to bump into a cord that is plugged in there. That will cause the appliance to fall into their lap or onto their feet. It does not matter if the receptacle is just 13 inches below the countertop, or is at toe kick level. It is dangerous.
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April 1'st isn't 'till tomorrow. This has to be a joke :smile:
 
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