Kitchen island receptacles

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: Charlie, are you saying that no receptacle can be mounted anywhere on an island unless it meets 210.52(C) requirements?

Yes. That is what I am saying. Or more to the point, that is what I believe the words in the NEC are saying.

Originally posted by jim dungar: 210.52(C)(5) says the location for counter receptacles will be above the counter top. To be mounted below the counter top and still count as a counter receptacle you must meet requirements 1 or 2 of the exception. If the receptacle location does not meet the exception then it is not prohibited but rather it can not be considered a countertop receptacle.

There is no distinction between receptacles that serve countertop appliances and receptacles that don't (i.e., that are meant for other purposes). If the receptacle is on the island, then it serves the "counter space." The rules that apply start at 210.52(C), as I mentioned in my first post. Once you start down the path set by that rule, there is no option given to you to install a receptacle that does not fit the rules.

Originally posted by jim dungar: I believe that if the island is acting as a room divider then it is subject to 210.52(A)(2)(3) and must have a general use receptacle mounted in/on it.

That is a different game entirely. It was recently debated on this Forum. Please note this earlier post, which I believe was intended as a allusion to the earlier debate:

Originally posted by electricmanscott: There are some who would argue that the back side of an island is wall space and you would have no choice but to install receptacles there anyway (I am not one of those people).

I am not either. But can we set this question aside, until we get through the other?

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie,

You say that once you start down the path of 210.52(C) you must stay on it, I do not disagree. But I do not believe all receptacles in the vicinity of counters are considered "for [the] counter".

I say that 210.52(A)(2)(3) may require a receptacle in the island well before you ever get to 210.52(C). Do we just ignore this section?

If I have a peninsular type counter (no cabinet underneath it) which is located 1' from the fixed panel of a patio door, where do I put the wall receptacle, no more than 12" below the counter?

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Charlie, yes, it is your logic as it is your interpretation. I do not want these words to say any more than they do. What they "say" is that a receptacle that is to serve an island or peninsula countertop may be up to 12" below the countertop and under an overhang of not more than 6". Specifically it says "shall be permitted". Please cite where NEC says that a receptacle is prohibited anywhere on an island.

Am I allowed to install a receptacle 21" above a countertop if I have all of my required receptacles? I've done it many times for a microwave which sits on a shelf.

If we were to follow your pattern of interpretation and read down to 210.52(D), then we would not be allowed to install a receptacle anywhere in a bathroom unless it was within 3' of a basin.

Please apply your statement that "the words do not say what you want them to", and cite an article which prohibits the aforementioned receptacle.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:
Read the words. Then tell me if you interpret the words differently than I.

I do.

210.52(C) gives requirements for receptacles for counter spaces. Those "shall be" installed per it's subsections.

As soon as the installer states that "this receptacle is to serve wall space", or "to serve as a convenience receptacle for the next room" then this section no longer applies.

That doesn't relieve them of the duty of installing an outlet for the island counter space, but the questionable outlet is not required to be considered serving counter space, IMO.

 

[pierre]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

I do not believe that there are any restrictions as to being able to locate a receptacle (or many for that matter) somewhere else on the island if one should choose to do so. There may be shelving located within the island and a receptacle can be located there. As we all are aware, the NEC is a permissive document, and unless we are told not to, we can. So where is the code section(s) that prohibit any more receptacles on/within an island?

 

[stars13bars2]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Are there some here who are trying to use the NEC as a design manuel? Following the Code will produce an installation which is essentially free from hazzard. I do not know of anything in the Code which would prevent one from installing a floor receptacle in a nursery, and storing paperclips next to it. The Code describes many things that shall, or shall not be done. I have had an inspector ask me to show him in the Code where it says I can do that. To which I responded "show me where it says that I can't do it". While common sense and good design may deem this a terrible location for a receptacle, I do not believe that the Code prevents this installation, nor do I believe the Inspector should rely on the Code to dissalow the installation. While I have no problem with him asking for it to be removed on the basis of the hazard that it may present. Just don't tell me that it is a Code violation without an article number, which doesn't have to be combined with 90.4 to get it to say what you want it to.

Just my humble opinion, which combined with @ $4 will get you coffee at star bucks.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Thank you for all of the replies so far; don't stop! I have not posted nything else up till now, because nobody posted anything that needed a correction or other comment.

In fact, comments such as the extra wall receptacles above 18" being okay, as long as the required ones are there, are exactly in line with my thinking.

The island is about 4' by 10', with a sink centered on one long side. The remaining surface is more than wide enough that the sink doesn't divide it, but we went with two receptacles for convenience.

This "extra" receptacle is the GFCI receptacle that protects the other two, feed-thru style. The inspector suggested that we replace the GFCI receptacle with a faceless one.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: But I do not believe all receptacles in the vicinity of counters are considered "for [the] counter".

Whether they are "for the counter" is not relevant. What is relevant is that they are "for the counter space." That is what gets you into 210.52(C) in the first place. Once you are there, you have to go where that section leads you.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by jim dungar: I say that 210.52(A)(2)(3) may require a receptacle in the island well before you ever get to 210.52(C). Do we just ignore this section?

I don't suggest that we ignore it. I do request that we set aside that discussion for the moment. It would distract from the other interesting part of this discussion, the part that, in fact, was the original question.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by j_erickson: What they "say" is that a receptacle that is to serve an island or peninsula countertop may be up to 12" below the countertop and under an overhang of not more than 6". Specifically it says "shall be permitted". Please cite where NEC says that a receptacle is prohibited anywhere on an island. . . . Please apply your statement that "the words do not say what you want them to", and cite an article which prohibits the aforementioned receptacle.

My first post gives you the relevant article and sub-paragraphs, and it takes you through the sequence in which the articles must be followed.

But to state it again, 210.52(C)(5) starts by saying all receptacles must be above the counter. Then there is the exception you and I have both cited. But what is the nature of an exception? It is this: If "an exception to a rule" does not apply to your intended installation, then you have to fall back on "the rule." In this case, if you have an overhand of over 6 inches, then you can't use the exception. That forces you back to the rule that says the receptacle must be above the counter.

Originally posted by j_erickson:Am I allowed to install a receptacle 21" above a countertop if I have all of my required receptacles? I've done it many times for a microwave which sits on a shelf.

That's a fair question. My response is that that particular receptacle does not answer the description of "receptacle outlets for counter spaces." Rather, it is a "receptacle outlet for a shelf space." You are not in 210.52(C).

Originally posted by j_erickson: If we were to follow your pattern of interpretation and read down to 210.52(D), then we would not be allowed to install a receptacle anywhere in a bathroom unless it was within 3' of a basin.

Thank you for bringing that up. Your statement is not correct, but thank you for making it. It gives me exactly what I need to make my point even stronger.

Look at the wording of 210.52(D). It does not say that all bathroom receptacles must be done in such and such a way. What it says is that you need at least one receptacle in a certain location. If you put a second receptacle in a different location, then you still have complied with the rule that says you must have at least one in a certain location. The bottom line is that this rule is worded along the lines of "at least one must be . . . ," and not along the lines of "all must be. . . ."

By contrast, 210.52(C) has words that apply to all receptacles that serve the counter space. So if you have the required one (or perhaps the required two), and if you add another, then the one you add is still a "receptacle that serves the counter space." Therefore, it must still obey the same rules.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

I'm getting a headache!

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by j_erickson:

Originally posted by j_erickson:[qb]Am I allowed to install a receptacle 21" above a countertop if I have all of my required receptacles? I've done it many times for a microwave which sits on a shelf.

That's a fair question. My response is that that particular receptacle does not answer the description of "receptacle outlets for counter spaces." Rather, it is a "receptacle outlet for a shelf space." You are not in 210.52(C).

The aforementioned is not a "receptacle for counter space". Neither is a receptacle under an overhang greater than 6" or a receptacle further than 12" below the counter. They can not be as they are not located in the area(s) defined in 210.52(C)(5) including the exception. If they are not in the location defined by 210.52(C)(5), then they are not considered receptacle outlets for counter spaces, but there is nothing prohibiting them from being installed. As you said, we would not be in 210.52(C). We are in 210.52(B).

 

[JohnE]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:


Look at the wording of 210.52(D). It does not say that all bathroom receptacles must be done in such and such a way. What it says is that you need at least one receptacle in a certain location. If you put a second receptacle in a different location, then you still have complied with the rule that says you must have at least one in a certain location. The bottom line is that this rule is worded along the lines of "at least one must be . . . ," and not along the lines of "all must be. . . ."

The rules do not say that all receptacles on an island must be in a specific location. They tell you that you need one receptacle, where that receptacle must be, and an exception. There is nothing prescriptive on additional receptacles.

 

[pierre]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

"Just don't tell me that it is a Code violation without an article number, which doesn't have to be combined with 90.4 to get it to say what you want it to."


Very well stated!!!

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

First I am not surprised that this is still going.


What is it exactly that make a receptacle under the overhang any more or less dangerous then one not under an overhang?

[ January 28, 2006, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by charlie b:
210.52(D) What it says is that you need at least one receptacle in a certain location.

As is 210.52(C)(2).

So if you have the required one (or perhaps the required two), and if you add another, then the one you add is still a "receptacle that serves the counter space." Therefore, it must still obey the same rules.

This is a critical fault in your position, Charlie.

Where is it written that the offending receptacle shall be considered as serving the counter space?

I think you're having a patented 'George' moment. I want royalties from the book sales.

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Where is it written that the offending receptacle shall be considered as serving the counter space?

Charlie I agree with our favorite 3rd year housemonkey.

If I put a receptacle down low on the island for general use I see nothing that requires that we consider it there for the purposes of serving the counter.

Of course this assumes I have already installed one or more receptacle outlets to serve the counter top.

[ January 28, 2006, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by iwire:
If I put a receptacle down low on the island for general use I see nothing that requires that we consider it there for the purposes of serving the counter.

To go a step further down the same road, I'd go so far as to say that if the questionable receptacle were installed at the same altitude as the "island counter receptacle", it would still be permitted, for two reasons.

One, it can't be considered serving the counter space, due to it's location.

Two, 210.52 states that the max altitude for wall space receptacles is 5.5'. You could place all receptacles in a house at 3' like the island receptacle if desired. Why not this one?

It's understandable in some instances where additional receptacles would be raised to match the required ones, to prevent them from looking like an accident, IMO.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

Originally posted by iwire:
Charlie I agree with our favorite 3rd year housemonkey.

That sounds great.

Where is the lesser favored one?

 

[iwire]

Re: Kitchen island receptacles

George IMO you are venturing into uncharted territory.

IMO an outlet installed on an island that qualifies as serving the counter top will have to be considered as serving the countertop.