- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Originally posted by georgestolz:
Where is the lesser favored one?
Kitchen island receptacles
- Thread starter LarryFine
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Actually, I spent all day yesterday digging. It was as much fun as it sounds.
Being under an overhang would preclude it from serving the countertop. I wasn't going down the road you're thinking of, I think.
Actually, I spent all day yesterday digging. It was as much fun as it sounds.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
The question is whether its existence is illegal. I say that it is legal as is, as it does not serve the countertop. There are two others that do, one at each end.
Bob, I agree 100% with that statement. The receptacle we are discussing does not qualify as serving the countertop, because it is below a too-wide overhang.
The question is whether its existence is illegal. I say that it is legal as is, as it does not serve the countertop. There are two others that do, one at each end.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
OK. I'll let you all in on a secret: I've enjoyed this discussion. I won't say that I have been making game of this issue, but I have been trying to make a point about reading what is written, and not reading what is not written.
So here is the key to the point of view that I have been espousing. My whole point is made or broken on the validity of this one key. If I have this key wrong, then all of my arguments fall apart. If I have this key right, then all arguments to the contrary fall apart.
The key is this: If a receptacle is installed anywhere on an island, there is no way for the homeowner to know whether or not it is intended to serve the countertop surface. The homeowner is not going to notice that a receptacle is 15 inches below the countertop or that a receptacle is under an 8 inch overhang, and therefore know that they should not plug a crock pot into that receptacle. The homeowner must be free to presume that any receptacle on an island can be used to power something on the countertop. Therefore, we must install receptacles with that possibility in mind. If we do otherwise, we create an unsafe condition. I don't believe the code was intended to allow us to create an unsafe condition.
I therefore view the phrase "counter spaces" as being more than just the horizontal countertop itself. I view the phrase "counter spaces" as comprising the entire volume of space occupied by the island, including all horizontal and vertical surfaces. Please note that "counter spaces" is the phrase used in the text of the code. "Countertop" appears only as the title of one sub-paragraph; all of the text is about "counter spaces."
If you accept that interpretation of "counter space," then you have to accept the remainder of my argument, as explained above, for it follows logically from that premise. If you chose not to accept that interpretation of "counter space," if you view "counter space" and "countertop" as being synonymous, then my argument falls apart.
OK. I'll let you all in on a secret: I've enjoyed this discussion.
I won't say that I have been making game of this issue, but I have been trying to make a point about reading what is written, and not reading what is not written. So here is the key to the point of view that I have been espousing. My whole point is made or broken on the validity of this one key. If I have this key wrong, then all of my arguments fall apart. If I have this key right, then all arguments to the contrary fall apart.
The key is this: If a receptacle is installed anywhere on an island, there is no way for the homeowner to know whether or not it is intended to serve the countertop surface. The homeowner is not going to notice that a receptacle is 15 inches below the countertop or that a receptacle is under an 8 inch overhang, and therefore know that they should not plug a crock pot into that receptacle. The homeowner must be free to presume that any receptacle on an island can be used to power something on the countertop. Therefore, we must install receptacles with that possibility in mind. If we do otherwise, we create an unsafe condition. I don't believe the code was intended to allow us to create an unsafe condition.
I therefore view the phrase "counter spaces" as being more than just the horizontal countertop itself. I view the phrase "counter spaces" as comprising the entire volume of space occupied by the island, including all horizontal and vertical surfaces. Please note that "counter spaces" is the phrase used in the text of the code. "Countertop" appears only as the title of one sub-paragraph; all of the text is about "counter spaces."
If you accept that interpretation of "counter space," then you have to accept the remainder of my argument, as explained above, for it follows logically from that premise. If you chose not to accept that interpretation of "counter space," if you view "counter space" and "countertop" as being synonymous, then my argument falls apart.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Charlie,
The rules for an island and a peninsula are the same. How do you address an outlet that is installed in a 1' wall perpendicular to the counter space? I asked this once before and you said you would cover it later.
What if the island/peninsula is a true room divider (i.e. there is a 7" change in elevation from one side to the other)?
Charlie,
The rules for an island and a peninsula are the same. How do you address an outlet that is installed in a 1' wall perpendicular to the counter space? I asked this once before and you said you would cover it later.
What if the island/peninsula is a true room divider (i.e. there is a 7" change in elevation from one side to the other)?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Jim: The item that I had suggested that we discuss "later" was the bit about the island or peninsula acting as a fixed room divider. I will try to look for the other thread in which this sort of thing was debated.
But a quick summary of my views (and in fairness, some others agreed and some others disagreed) is that you must have a "wall," before you can have a "wall space." I don't believe that the side of an island constitutes a wall. But then, I don't believe 210.52(A)(2)(3) is at all clear. I don't know what the phrase "afforded by" means in this context. Is it talking about the side of an island as though that side constituted a "wall"? I think not. But before we get too deep into that discussion here, let's look for that other thread, and give you a chance to read through it.
In the mean time, I am not sure now that I understand what you mean by " an outlet that is installed in a 1' wall perpendicular to the counter space." Are you talking about an island that has a backsplash area (above the countertop)? If so, then that is the place at which 210.52(C)(5) would require the outlet to be installed. If that is not what you mean, then let me ask you to clarify the question.
Jim: The item that I had suggested that we discuss "later" was the bit about the island or peninsula acting as a fixed room divider. I will try to look for the other thread in which this sort of thing was debated.
But a quick summary of my views (and in fairness, some others agreed and some others disagreed) is that you must have a "wall," before you can have a "wall space." I don't believe that the side of an island constitutes a wall. But then, I don't believe 210.52(A)(2)(3) is at all clear. I don't know what the phrase "afforded by" means in this context. Is it talking about the side of an island as though that side constituted a "wall"? I think not. But before we get too deep into that discussion here, let's look for that other thread, and give you a chance to read through it.
In the mean time, I am not sure now that I understand what you mean by " an outlet that is installed in a 1' wall perpendicular to the counter space." Are you talking about an island that has a backsplash area (above the countertop)? If so, then that is the place at which 210.52(C)(5) would require the outlet to be installed. If that is not what you mean, then let me ask you to clarify the question.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Imagine a counter with a peninsula. Perpendicular to the peninsula is a wall with a sliding patio door. The 3' wide fixed pane of the patio door is located 1' away from the edge of the peninsula. This gives a wall space of 4', so a general use wall receptacle is required. This wall receptacle would have to be located less than 1' away from the verticle edge of the counter. Could the wall receptacle be mounted a "normal" distance above the floor or would it need to "at counter level"?
Imagine a counter with a peninsula. Perpendicular to the peninsula is a wall with a sliding patio door. The 3' wide fixed pane of the patio door is located 1' away from the edge of the peninsula. This gives a wall space of 4', so a general use wall receptacle is required. This wall receptacle would have to be located less than 1' away from the verticle edge of the counter. Could the wall receptacle be mounted a "normal" distance above the floor or would it need to "at counter level"?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Jim
This receptacle is not serving the countertop, so you can place as you would any other receptacle for wall space would be installed... from the floor up to 5 1/2 ft from the floor.
Jim
This receptacle is not serving the countertop, so you can place as you would any other receptacle for wall space would be installed... from the floor up to 5 1/2 ft from the floor.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Not to confuse things here, but since the penninsula space requires 1 outlet from the connecting edge and is withing 6 ft of the door opening and the receptacle isn't above 5'6" for wallspace or 20" above the countertop, be used for not only the wallspace from the door opening, but also the penninsula countertop (since it's connecting edge is the wall) in one shot? It requires less work and meets 2 requirements.
Not to confuse things here, but since the penninsula space requires 1 outlet from the connecting edge and is withing 6 ft of the door opening and the receptacle isn't above 5'6" for wallspace or 20" above the countertop, be used for not only the wallspace from the door opening, but also the penninsula countertop (since it's connecting edge is the wall) in one shot? It requires less work and meets 2 requirements.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Charlie, I think if someone were trying to argue that additional receptacles were not required to be on SABC, or were not required to be GFCI protected, your argument is substantiated. But not in this case.
The receptacles are not unsafe. One receptacle is required in a specific location. I believe this is due to the length of the factory cords on appliances. Basically 12' below the countertop is equivalent to under an overhang of 6". Not exactly, but basically. Using any island receptacle may be unsafe, but as long as they are all GFCI protected, they are all equally safe. The receptacle is not unsafe, but certain uses might be. Do you think that the NEC deems it unsafe because a child is more likely to pull down a crock pot plugged into a receptacle mounted under a 7'" overhang and 34" above the floor than a child would be to pull down one mounted 24" above the floor under no overhang? Or is it more dangerous because a homeowner might break out an extension cord to use one instead of the other. Either way I don't think that the code wording support the "unsafe argument".
Charlie, I think if someone were trying to argue that additional receptacles were not required to be on SABC, or were not required to be GFCI protected, your argument is substantiated. But not in this case.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Good point John. The way the Homeowner utilizes the receptacle after they move in can not be regulated.
Good point John. The way the Homeowner utilizes the receptacle after they move in can not be regulated.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
After rethinking the last sentence of my last post, I'd like to retract the part of the GFCI protection being required if the receptacle were more that 12" below countertop or under overhang more than 6". It completely contradidts all my other statements. I hadn't thought it through.
After rethinking the last sentence of my last post, I'd like to retract the part of the GFCI protection being required if the receptacle were more that 12" below countertop or under overhang more than 6". It completely contradidts all my other statements. I hadn't thought it through.
stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
So I have my label gun and am typing a label that says "not intended to serve counter". If I install said label, will I be covered like one of those "no equipment ground" labels?
So I have my label gun and am typing a label that says "not intended to serve counter". If I install said label, will I be covered like one of those "no equipment ground" labels?
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Until it gets painted over.
Until it gets painted over.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
I think not. I see a 1 foot wall space that does not require a receptacle. I also see a peninsula that only requires one receptacle, and that one does not have to be on the side next to the patio door. That is part of the discussion in "that other thread," if I could ever find it.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
There is precedence for this type of "let's save the owner from himself by preventing an unsafe condition" in the NEC. Why does the NEC require a receptacle on an island anyway? To prevent just such an accident. To prevent a person from walking into a cord that is stretched across the space between the island and the counter.
The "unsafe" part that I see is not related to GFCI protection, nor to a child pulling on the cord. It is you (or any other person) sitting on a bar stool, with your legs under that 12 inch overhang, and with a crock pot plugged into the receptacle near or below your knees. As you rotate the barstool in preparation for standing up, your legs contact and pull the cord, and the crock pot lands on your lap. To prevent such an accident, we should not put a receptacle under that 12 inch overhang.
There is precedence for this type of "let's save the owner from himself by preventing an unsafe condition" in the NEC. Why does the NEC require a receptacle on an island anyway? To prevent just such an accident. To prevent a person from walking into a cord that is stretched across the space between the island and the counter.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
Charlie,
210.52(A)(2)(2) requires the door panel to be counted when determing wall space, therefore a receptacle is required in the 1' wall. Would you say 210.52(C) applies to this receptacle.
Charlie,
210.52(A)(2)(2) requires the door panel to be counted when determing wall space, therefore a receptacle is required in the 1' wall. Would you say 210.52(C) applies to this receptacle.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
as you described. Unless there were a code article to prohibit it.
Your argument supposes that homeowner will use receptacle under overhang rather than the one placed in the permitted location.
1. So what, it's his choice.
2. I think he will not.
3. I think he will decide not to use either, since any cord draping below the countertop may be a hazard.
4. I think that he will tape an extension cord to the ceiling and run to island in order to avoid said hazard.
5. Doesn't matter what I think he will do, or you think he will do, or what he even does. What matters is whether or not the receptacle we've been discussing is prohibited. I don't see any code reference to support your argument.
Charlie, while I don't disagree that this may pose a hazard if used in this manner, I still do not see an NEC article prohibiting this installation. If the required receptacle is in place, then homeowner must be held accountable for engaging in an unsafe practice
as you described. Unless there were a code article to prohibit it.
Your argument supposes that homeowner will use receptacle under overhang rather than the one placed in the permitted location.
1. So what, it's his choice.
2. I think he will not.
3. I think he will decide not to use either, since any cord draping below the countertop may be a hazard.
4. I think that he will tape an extension cord to the ceiling and run to island in order to avoid said hazard.
5. Doesn't matter what I think he will do, or you think he will do, or what he even does. What matters is whether or not the receptacle we've been discussing is prohibited. I don't see any code reference to support your argument.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
</font>
I had though you were adding three feet as being the length of the peninsula. I thought you were saying that a 1 foot wall plus a 3 foot "peninsula wall" came to a total of 4 feet, and therefore a receptacle was needed. I had disagreed with that concept, because I do not consider the vertical face of a peninsula to be a "wall." No wall, no wall reptacle.
Now I'm not sure I understood your description. Let me see if this is what you meant:
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Put your hand on the peninsula's countertop, at the far end (away from the wall). Slide your hand toward the wall. When you hit the wall, slide your hand to the right, along the wall. You will go only one foot, and then you will encounter a patio doorway. The doorway has a 3 foot wide fixed panel, then (further to the right) it has a sliding panel. Both panels are glass.</font>
I had though you were adding three feet as being the length of the peninsula. I thought you were saying that a 1 foot wall plus a 3 foot "peninsula wall" came to a total of 4 feet, and therefore a receptacle was needed. I had disagreed with that concept, because I do not consider the vertical face of a peninsula to be a "wall." No wall, no wall reptacle.
If you put a receptacle on the 1 foot wide section of wall (not required, but it is allowed), then it is not serving "wall counter spaces." So no, I would say that 210.52(C) does not apply.
Re: Kitchen island receptacles
I agree with Charlie. The code panel must have thought that it was unsafe to place the required receptacle under a countertop extending more than 6" or lower than 12". With that in mind I am convinced that it would be unsafe to install any other receptacle does not meet the above requirement.
Just my thought romeo
I agree with Charlie. The code panel must have thought that it was unsafe to place the required receptacle under a countertop extending more than 6" or lower than 12". With that in mind I am convinced that it would be unsafe to install any other receptacle does not meet the above requirement.
Just my thought romeo
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