Kitchen remodel two questions

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

chucknewell

Member
Does the most recent NEC require a 240v circuit for a stove? The cooktop is gas but the new oven is electric 3.6kW so only needs 12/3 on 20A breaker.
Also, I'm putting in 4 20A small appliance circuits (countertop recpt.) since code only requires 2 can I pull power off of one for the range hood?

Thanks
Chuck
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

You're only required to supply the oven if you want it to work.

The hood, for some obsurd reason, can be powered from a lighting circuit but not the SA circuits.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

The manufacturer's instructions of the appliance will indicate what voltages should be connected to the appliance. The NEC is not a product standard.

Once an NEC section is statisfied, anything in addition is not subkect to that section. At least that is what some people believe. I would say that if the 2 required circuits serve the required receptacles and one of the other 2 are for additional receptacles, then yes the range hood could be served off that circuit. If the 4 circuits are needed or being used to serve required receptacles, than no the range hood should be served from another non-small applaice circuit.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

You're right Bryan, 210.52(B)(3) allows both the required and the additional SA circuits to supply other receptacle outlets in the kitchen blah blah...

So I think it amounts to you can't hardwire the hood if you use an SA circuit. Heck, makes sense to me.

I just don't know about CMP 2.

Ayy, it's the weekend Al. :)
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

please pay close attention to the last five words of this post
210.52 (B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
edited sorry 2002 code

[ January 09, 2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

I know it's not law yet, but...
NEC-2005 422.16(B)(4)Range Hoods, Condition (5) The receptacle shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit.
Click to expand...
This issue was a design issue that has recently been written in. It applies only to cord and plug connected range hoods installed after 2005 NEC is adopted. To provide expandability for future microwaves.

If I were you, I'd pick some hardwired appliances to put on your 20's, and leave two SA's for their own use on countertops and such per 210.52(B).
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

What brought that on? :D

My read on 210.52(B) is that if you have a dedicated space for a fastened in place appliance, you will need to power that up per other respective articles. But above all else, get two 20's in the kitchen for small appliance use.

Don't clutter them with a bunch of screwed-down junk, 'cept the 'fridge cuz that's ah'ight. Ya'll come back naw, ya hear?
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

CMP 2 has this habbit of writing code in such a way that you end up with mutually exclusive answers to the same question and generating exception loops and just plain causing unnecessary confusion.

I see the same, would be, simple code concepts debated and misunderstood over and over.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

OK, I just want to be clear here. If I have a 100 sq ft. kitchen with 6 countertop recpt. each on it's own 20A breaker making 6 SA circuits in this little kitchen I'm not allowed to pull a couple amps off of one of thoes circuits because the recpt. is installed above the counter? I don't mind, I can install another circuit faster than I can type this message. Just curious.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

If you start at 210.52(B)(3) then go to 210.52(B)(1) then to 210.11(C)(1) then to 210.52(B)(2)

beacause that's how each of these codes read, when you get to the last one it says you can't do anything that isn't in the second code I listed above.

If you're not dizzy or nausious from all this you may or may not remember that somewhere in there, you ready?

You can use those SA circuits for receptacle outlets in breakfast room, dining room, pantry and kitchen.

And that's only if I didn't get it wrong from confusion. :mad:

All these shalls and shall nots and you betters and you better nots, if they could just get to the oh so simple point.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

chucknewell,

I suspect you are asking a question that doesn't yet have enough information in it to answer, specifically for you.

Your 100 ft? kitchen with its 6 countertop receptacles is not enough info. NEC section 210.52 lays out the required outlets, but what we're missing is the layout of the particular kitchen that you are thinking of, for the purpose of your question.

The size and configuration of the countertops and the needs of the refrigerator and other similar appliances that can be included on the small appliance circuits will enter in to determining the required outlets from 210.52 for your specific kitchen. . .If you install one more outlet than those required outlets, then it might be argued that that extra outlet can be on any circuit you want , and also, be a point to extend to the range hood.

'Course, for a simple range hood (no micro or large motors), for my money, the hood can be tagged on to a lighting circuit, any day of the week.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

All these shalls and shall nots and you betters and you better nots, if they could just get to the oh so simple point.
Click to expand...
Little known fact: CMP-2 watches "The Ten Commandments" prior to writing code. :D

Sam, do you really want me to tie up a couple days rewriting 210? Have mercy. Nobody'll look anyway. :D

(Edit: With my affection for writing things that "look like code.")

[ January 10, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

You have a lot work to do George, better get started. I'll check on how it's coming along in a week or so. :)
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

The NEC is not written to be easily understood. I think that is a good thing. It is just that enough of us in the field do not take advantage of it to influence our bank accounts.
Do you really think that the doctors and insurance people as well as attorneys need to have a special language? No, neither do we, but if we were to pay a little more attention to this fact it might just help the bottom line.

"The Devil is in the Details"

210.11(C)(1)
, two or more 20- ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)

210.52(B)(2) No Other Outlets.

Whether we like it or not these are the requirements. If one should decide to not follow this or any other requirements knowingly, what is the difference of him/her from all of the other people we complain about, such as the swarm that comes out of the big box stores on a saturday?

Pierre
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Pierre,

Can you be more specific. What outlets do you interpret as being on either side of "no other outlets"?

I kind of agree with you about attempting to use the complicated nature of the NEC as a profit tool. But, if you were to say to a prospective customer that you are entitled to charge whatever it is because the NEC is complicated I think you would make a lot of folks rather angry. And also, unnecessary complication is simply wasteful.

Edit: The pieces of code you posted don't identify any receptacles as being allowed, only no others.

[ January 10, 2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top