Kitchen SABC

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Dennis Alwon said:
That is not the nec definition. If you use the nec then it is not a kitchen.
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Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for
food preparation and cooking.

Please tell me where "cooking" requires "heating"?

Cooking is what the cook does.

cooking adjective

: suitable for or used in cooking : involving or having to do with cooking
 
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Where in the NEC is it stated that the NEC determines the occupancy & use of a space \ structure ?

From the `12 IRC, R101.2 - Scope:
The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to
the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment,use and occupancy,
location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more
than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory
structures.
Exceptions:
1. Live/work units complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the International Building Code
shall be permitted to be built as one- and two-family dwellings or townhouses..........Fire suppression
required by Section 419.5 of the International Building Code when constructed under the International
Residential Code for One - and Two-family Dwellings shall conform to Section P2904.
2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms shall be permitted to be constructed
in accordance with the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings when equipped
with a fire sprinkler system in accordance with Section P2904."

In short, ...the IRC governs what the space \ structure is identified as, and because the IRC governs,
see also
Section R102.1- General: "Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a
specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.........Where, in any specific case,
different sections of this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other
requirements, the most restrictive shall govern."


Also, ...see Section R102.4.2 - Provisions in referenced codes and standards:
"Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject matter
that is within the scope of this code, the provisions of this code, as applicable, shall take
precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard."

IMO, ...the IRC governs this application, and as such, there is food preparation taking place.


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north star said:
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Where in the NEC is it stated that the NEC determines the occupancy & use of a space \ structure ?

From the `12 IRC, R101.2 - Scope:
The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to
the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment,use and occupancy,
location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more
than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory
structures.
Exceptions:
1. Live/work units complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the International Building Code
shall be permitted to be built as one- and two-family dwellings or townhouses..........Fire suppression
required by Section 419.5 of the International Building Code when constructed under the International
Residential Code for One - and Two-family Dwellings shall conform to Section P2904.
2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms shall be permitted to be constructed
in accordance with the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings when equipped
with a fire sprinkler system in accordance with Section P2904."

In short, ...the IRC governs what the space \ structure is identified as, and because the IRC governs,
see also
Section R102.1- General: "Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a
specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.........Where, in any specific case,
different sections of this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other
requirements, the most restrictive shall govern."


Also, ...see Section R102.4.2 - Provisions in referenced codes and standards:
"Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject matter
that is within the scope of this code, the provisions of this code, as applicable, shall take
precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard."

IMO, ...the IRC governs this application, and as such, there is food preparation taking place.


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Click to expand...

Spot on. Once the area is defined our opinions are moot.

??? Why does the OP need a disposal in a non-kitchen?

He (OP) thought it was a kitchen till he/his guys screwed up!
 
north star said:
[/SIZE][/COLOR]IMO, ...the IRC governs this application, and as such, there is food preparation taking place.


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KITCHEN. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for
food preparation and cooking.

ELECTRICAL DEFINITIONS
SECTION E3501
GENERAL
E3501.1 Scope. This chapter contains definitions
 
north star said:
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Which code governs the identification of space(s) ?.....It is the IRC, and
not the NEC !

From the `12 IRC, Ch. 2 - Definitions: "KITCHEN - Kitchen shall mean
an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food."

The OP has a sink, ...counter tops, ...a refrigerator and a Garbage Disposal.
IMO, ...this description screams food preparation ! :eek:hmy:



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It seems to me you where responding using the definition for kitchen found in chapter 2

Since the electrical provisions in chapter 35 have specific definitions when applying the electrical provisions I think it would be more appropriate to use the definition for kitchen found in chapter 35
 
north star said:
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Where in the NEC is it stated that the NEC determines the occupancy & use of a space \ structure ?
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We can't work from two documents which contradict each other. If you are defining a kitchen for building code issues that is one thing but for the electrical it is my opinion that the NEc is to be used. If not then throw the book out and pick one. It gets ridiculous.
 
if he had this stored in a cabinet does he have a kitchen or not?

Hot-Plate-ES602-D1-.jpg

By the OP's admission he installed:

(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the
number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits
shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
210.52(B).

Why?

He said he passed inspection but we don't know if the inspector said anything about the disposal. Of course he would pass if he had the above required circuits.
 
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Dennis,

Respectfully, but we regularly work with multiple documents and standards.
Just look at the various Accessibility standards [ ICC A117.1, ...the IBC,
...the CA Accessibility Standards & the DOJ `10 ADA.....Also, look at the
multiple documents & standards within the NFPA ].

Also, ...if we are referring to working with multiple documents & standards,
...which standard [ read: code ] clearly states that "the most restrictive"
standard shall govern ?.......That code also defines the use & occupancy of
the space.

IMO, ...the OP has a Kitchen, and food preparation will take place.


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Dennis Alwon said:
We can't work from two documents which contradict each other. If you are defining a kitchen for building code issues that is one thing but for the electrical it is my opinion that the NEc is to be used. If not then throw the book out and pick one. It gets ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Throw out the NEC - It has more confusing text than the building code. The NEC is a subsection of the Building Code not the other way around.

You can't drill holes only to meet the NEC:

(A) Cables and Raceways Through Wood Members.
(1) Bored Holes. In both exposed and concealed locations,
where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is installed
through bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members,
holes shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not less
than 32 mm (11?4 in.) from the nearest edge of the wood
member.

You must also follow the Building Code:

502.8 Drilling and notching. Structural floor members shall not be cut, bored or
notched in excess of the limitations specified in this section. See Figure 502.8.

north star said:
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david,

Which is the "most restrictive" application in the IRC, ...Ch. 35, or Ch. 2 - Definitions ?

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SECTION 102
APPLICABILITY AND JURISDICTIONAL AUTHORITY
102.1 General. Where, in any specific case, different sections of this code specify
different materials, methods of construction or other requirements, the most
restrictive shall govern. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement
and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.
 
north star said:
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david,

Which is the "most restrictive" application in the IRC, ...Ch. 35, or Ch. 2 - Definitions ?

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It?s the most restrictive when a referenced standard is in conflict. I think this is more in line with the general rule verses a specific application. As I said I think it is more appropriate to use the specific definition in the electrical provisions. These are not two different codes the definition comes from chapter 35 and kitchen is defined in chapter 35 when applying the electrical provisions
 
I have a question for those arguing that it qualifies as a kitchen.

If you were buying or renting a place that advertised the OPs set up as a kitchen, code references aside, would you accept or feel that you were mislead when you got the details?
 
jumper said:
I have a question for those arguing that it qualifies as a kitchen.

If you were buying or renting a place that advertised the OPs set up as a kitchen, code references aside, would you accept or feel that you were mislead when you got the details?
Click to expand...

If no stove/cooktop yes I would be mislead. We are mislead everyday with true statements.
 
jxofaltrds said:
SECTION 102
APPLICABILITY AND JURISDICTIONAL AUTHORITY
102.1 General. Where, in any specific case, different sections of this code specify
different materials, methods of construction or other requirements, the most
restrictive shall govern. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement
and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.
Click to expand...

I don?t think either one needs thrown out. I do not see a conflict, Use the definitions in chapter 35 when applying the code sections found in chapter 35
 
Im learning a lot in here :D


Adding my 2 cents I think this might count as a kitchen, the disposer is a giveaway some time of food prep is going on. I could see during the super bowl a blender and hot plate chugging along.


I know around here inspectors often force home bars and mini office lunch rooms to have a SABC.
 
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david,

Respectfully, but before you apply the standards of Ch. 35, ...wouldn't you want
to know exactly how the space \ area is defined, ...what the Occupancy is ?
Ch. 2 - Definitions provides a clear definition of how the space \ area is, or will
be used. :blink:

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jxofaltrds said:
The NEC is a subsection of the Building Code not the other way around.
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I don't believe the NEC is subsection of the building code in my area. There are both standards that have been adopted and when using the NEC you would use NEC definitions if they are provided.
 
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iwire ( and others ),

In this application, which standard [ In Your Opinion ] is the "most restrictive" ?

Also, ...typically the IBC or the IRC is the "Master Code", and the other codes are
the "Slave Codes"........The IBC & the IRC tells one what the area \ space \ structure
is and what is the intended use.......The NEC & the other applicable codes tells one
how to construct that particular use.

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