kitchen

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ultramegabob

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
I dont really understand what your asking, how could it be residential if it is in a commercial setting? does someone live in the business?
 

CFL

Member
Do you mean a kitchen in a commercial building other than a restaraunt? Like an employee breakroom or a hotel room?
 

vinster888

Senior Member
i worked on a cabinet shop that had like ten different kitchens installed in the showroom. the ahj treated them as resi kitchens. the customer actually wanted the same so in the end their customer didnt have a problem with all that stuff that wasnt there in the showroom.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
i worked on a cabinet shop that had like ten different kitchens installed in the showroom. the ahj treated them as resi kitchens. the customer actually wanted the same so in the end their customer didnt have a problem with all that stuff that wasnt there in the showroom.
I wired a display for a builder that had about 5 kitchens, partial baths. AHJ only made us make one into real usable kithchen. Others simply were appliances with no wires. The receptacles were real. This is wear the inspector must make touch calls
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
what does a residential kitchen in a commercial setting count as?

If you are asking what the NEC says about a kitchen and how the requirements of the code are applied then the 2008 NEC made it very clear.

While the kitchen definition in itself was moved to Art 100 as:

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for
food preparation and cooking.

You need to understand the application of 210.8(B) as it makes reference to kitchens:

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single phase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors

So in not knowing what you are really asking I have to assume you are looking for the applications that are making specific relation to GFCI requirements. Again I am assuming this is what you are going for. In the idea of other than dwellings and with the removal of Commerical or Institutional from the definitions of old, if all the elements of the definition of kitchen are present in your "other than dwelling" then 210.8 applies.

Hope that was helpful...if not sorry as I tried to dig into what you may have been asking.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I wired a display for a builder that had about 5 kitchens, partial baths. AHJ only made us make one into real usable kithchen. Others simply were appliances with no wires. The receptacles were real. This is wear the inspector must make touch calls
What is the tough part? :-?

Where the displays in a dwelling unit or not?

If the display was not in a dwelling unit there are no requirements to wire them.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I can't believe that any display has to be wired to function at all if no cooking will be performed.

Now, a cooking show on TV is another story. Although it's not in a dwelling, it's used for cooking.
 

ptrip

Senior Member
This is a question that only the AHJ can answer ... and a common question at that.

I've done different types of facilities that have kitchens that we (designers) wish to be rated as residential in lieu of commercial, even though it's a commercial building.

School home ec kitchens
School special ed kitchens
Nursing home occupational therapy kitchens
Demonstration kitchen at a major home builder's design center (with no immediate roof access).

Power is normally the least of the concerns. The biggest issue normally is commercial hood and ansul systems and sometimes grease traps.

The answer is not in the code books, but in discussions and possible variances from the AHJ.

Good luck.

Pam
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
This is a question that only the AHJ can answer ... and a common question at that.
I disagree, the only requirements are for dwelling units, any AHJ requiring that a display in a non-dwelling unit is asking for more then what the NEC requires.
 

ptrip

Senior Member
I'd like to know OPs actual issue at this point. None of the issues I can think of are electrical in nature.

What is the setting?

What is the problem / question?

There are plenty of settings where you might have an operable kitchen in a commercial setting that doesn't need to meet commercial requirements per local building codes ... as I have mentioned before ... but most of your 'variances' deal with mechanical or plumbing systems, not electrical.

Pam
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
What is the tough part? :-?

Where the displays in a dwelling unit or not?

If the display was not in a dwelling unit there are no requirements to wire them.
In commercial building. Only the 1 kitchen was real ,but they all ran together so other than by color and design would you know where 1 began or stoped. Thankfully the inspector used thinking and not only code book. Most everything else was real so could have argued that they needed wired in appliances. Real shame seeing several thousands being wasted but this was for a high end builder.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
In commercial building. Only the 1 kitchen was real ,but they all ran together so other than by color and design would you know where 1 began or stoped. Thankfully the inspector used thinking and not only code book. Most everything else was real so could have argued that they needed wired in appliances. Real shame seeing several thousands being wasted but this was for a high end builder.

I am still lost:-?

Is there a definition of dwelling unit in Article 100?

Do the requirements of 210.52 apply to non-dwelling units?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
I am still lost:-?

Is there a definition of dwelling unit in Article 100?

Do the requirements of 210.52 apply to non-dwelling units?
Yes there is and i have seen many offices that meet all of the requirements they listed but still are commercial.
Had one that had a kitchen most women would kill to own, a dining room,sitting room with TV,full bath,and a room with a closet, mini gulf course out back with patio and grill. I asked her if they intended to live in it because i would suggest adding smokes. They simply spent long days there. Hers was just 1 of many office buildings in a small strip.

So NO Bob it is not always a simple answer in black and white.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
Yes there is and i have seen many offices that meet all of the requirements they listed but still are commercial.
Had one that had a kitchen most women would kill to own, a dining room,sitting room with TV,full bath,and a room with a closet, mini gulf course out back with patio and grill. I asked her if they intended to live in it because i would suggest adding smokes. They simply spent long days there. Hers was just 1 of many office buildings in a small strip.

So NO Bob it is not always a simple answer in black and white.
Yes Jim. What you describe above is a complete and independant living facility: Therefore by article 100 it is a dwelling unit.

What you described earlier about 5 kitchens in a showroom are not complete and independant living facilities: Therefore by article 100 they are not dwelling units.

What I would question is whether the showroom kitchens are actually functional. If not then they are simply mock-ups. No plumbing means it's not really a sink; just a prop. Wire it as a commercial display. An oven with no power hookup (gas or electric) is a display prop not an oven. Just because it looks like a kitchen doesn't mean it really is a kitchen.
 
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