kitchen

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

i'm referring to a staff kitchen,my concern is whether the sabc and outlet spacing requirements have to be met.If not I think they should,what do you think?

 

[480sparky]

i'm referring to a staff kitchen,my concern is whether the sabc and outlet spacing requirements have to be met.If not I think they should,what do you think?

SABCs and the spacing rules apply only to dwelling kitchens.

 

[iMuse97]

i'm referring to a staff kitchen,my concern is whether the sabc and outlet spacing requirements have to be met.If not I think they should,what do you think?

a staff kitchen in a professional bldg or school would need recepts per plan, not per NEC dwelling unit requirements. I'd agree that recepts should have similar accessibility as the dwelling unit requirements, but you would have leeway in that regard. However, you should have several circuits to feed them since these areas can receive very high usage levels at mealtimes, should many staff members eat at once, or people plug in two coffee makers and a few hotpots, microwaves, or crockpots. JMHO, FWIW.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I would suggest make them all dedicted for the heavy use as mentioned but bid the print .

 

[iwire]

Yes there is and i have seen many offices that meet all of the requirements they listed but still are commercial.
Had one that had a kitchen most women would kill to own, a dining room,sitting room with TV,full bath,and a room with a closet, mini gulf course out back with patio and grill. I asked her if they intended to live in it because i would suggest adding smokes. They simply spent long days there. Hers was just 1 of many office buildings in a small strip.

So NO Bob it is not always a simple answer in black and white.

I am sorry the easy is difficult for you. :grin:

This thing you describe above, would the building dept, city town etc allow people to live there legally?

BE careful what you want to call a dwelling unit or next thing you know you will be wiring hospitals as dwelling units. :grin:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I am sorry the easy is difficult for you. :grin:

This thing you describe above, would the building dept, city town etc allow people to live there legally?

BE careful what you want to call a dwelling unit or next thing you know you will be wiring hospitals as dwelling units. :grin:

Legally maybe not but who would be able to stop them. They can be open 24/7 and might fall asleep on job.

A hospital would qualify would it not ? NEC writes some stupid things. They use hundreds of words where not needed and only a few for definitions. Reread it Bob and see if it eliminates an office. They never mention zoneing. Things often are not what they look like.

 

[construct]

SABCs and the spacing rules apply only to dwelling kitchens.

'Ditto'. Convenience receps only apply to dwelling units.

 

[pfalcon]

A hospital consists of multiple units and is therefore not a dwelling unit.

The NEC cannot account for zoning so the legal right to use it as dwelling unit is not relevant. If it fits the definition of a dwelling unit then it is whether zoning permits or not.

There is no staff kitchen in the NEC nor should there be one. iMuse97 describes a kitchen that is not in a dwelling unit. Wire appropriately.

 

[iwire]

Legally maybe not but who would be able to stop them. They can be open 24/7 and might fall asleep on job.

What does that even mean?:-?:-?

Did you get off your chair, pick up the NEC and read the definition?

Falling asleep on the job is not 'provisions for sleeping'

NEC writes some stupid things. They use hundreds of words where not needed and only a few for definitions. Reread it Bob and see if it eliminates an office. They never mention zoneing. Things often are not what they look like.

OK Jim, I understand the NEC is tough for you.

 

[iwire]

A hospital consists of multiple units and is therefore not a dwelling unit.

I agree.

The NEC cannot account for zoning so the legal right to use it as dwelling unit is not relevant. If it fits the definition of a dwelling unit then it is whether zoning permits or not.

OK, do you think what Jim is trying to describe is "one unit"

I have no idea what he is trying to describe but I will bet it ain't a dwelling unit.

 

[pfalcon]

OK, do you think what Jim is trying to describe is "one unit"

I have no idea what he is trying to describe but I will bet it ain't a dwelling unit.

i worked on a cabinet shop that had like ten different kitchens installed in the showroom. the ahj treated them as resi kitchens. the customer actually wanted the same so in the end their customer didnt have a problem with all that stuff that wasnt there in the showroom.

Not an independant living facility and therefore not a dwelling unit. 410.130(G) applies and is specifically targeted to places such as showrooms, retail stores, and other locations for off-the-floor sales. The concern is that the showroom may add/subtract lights without good traceability.

It's a tradeoff. While things like 140.130(G) add cost to a non-dwelling kitchen you are also exempt from adding all the receptacles a dwelling kitchen would require. You should also verify it is actually a kitchen. A non-plumbed sink is a prop not a sink.

 

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

o.k. i have a small kitchen with a 6ft counter,built in microwave, d.w. and fridge?commercially this requires 4 gfci's or residentially an additional countertop outlet and appliances without gfci protection.Which makes more sense?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Wow, I am surprised at how difficult some are finding this topic.

There are definitions (Dwelling, kitchen) in the NEC that really make this a no brainer.

 

[iwire]

There are definitions (Dwelling, kitchen) in the NEC that really make this a no brainer.

I thought so as well but I guess not.:grin:

 

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

Sorry Pierre,I forgot, we are not supposed to question the bible.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Sorry Pierre,I forgot, we are not supposed to question the bible.

Nobody questions the "bible" more than the people on this site.
But this topic is not about questioning the "bible".


I believe when an issue such as the issue in this thread pops up, it stems more from a lack of understanding what the installation is, than it does from misunderstanding the NEC.


P.S. I am glad you are sorry though.

 

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

Actually I only realised today when I told my guy not to worry about countertop outlet spacing,he asked "does that mean the fridge has to be on a gfci?"

 

[220/221]

does that mean the fridge has to be on a gfci?"

My logic says yes.

I'm calling it a comercial kitchen.





Keep in mind that I just pull answers out of my asterisk.

 

[radiopet]

what does a residential kitchen in a commercial setting count as?

I believe the NEC is clear on this definition:

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for
food preparation and cooking.

If the question is where does the application of 210.8 come into play in your question. That would be in the title of the subsection.

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single phase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors

With the removal of Commerical or Institutional from the statement the intent is clear. With that logic any kitchen that is not within a dwelling is a kitchen in "other than dwelling unit" type of kitchen..