lack of knowledge

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electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrician
This will start out sounding like a rant, but I really do have a serious question at the end so bear with me. I am really frustrated at the amount of incompetence, lack of knowledge, and morons in the electrical field. Of course construction in general has always had these issues as it is a field that almost anyone can get into with little or no prior knowledge or education. It is tempting to think that electrical work fairs better because of licensing requirements, but I work in areas both with and without licensing and I really dont notice much difference. I have worked in many different jurisdictions, Seattle, Central NY, Rhode island, and I honestly have never met an inspector or another electrician who seemed to know his code well. Then there are all these electricians who are big on the 'counter code' (the stuff you hear while waiting in line at the supply house - something like, "i hear you cant use those cable stackers anymore"). It seems like to these guys the NEC is some mythical document that only a few people in the world have a copy of. Recently I was working in a state with state level licensing. This is also a state that requires one to have a masters license to pull permits, and said that I, who am licensing in two other states and have 12 years experience, have to start over as an apprentice to get my license there. So one of their master electricians, did a 800 amp service with two parallel runs of #1 copper per phase, and grounds is 'sub panels' to the building steel. what is going on here? This stuff is not that hard. My question is, do others notice this level of incompetence? Do many of you feel that you know more code than most of the inspectors you come across? Are other fields like this? If I chose a totally random field like, say, marketing, would I find myself surrounded by morons there too?
 
electrofelon said:
My question is, do others notice this level of incompetence? Do many of you feel that you know more code than most of the inspectors you come across?
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It must be a great burden being the best electrician around. :roll:


Consider this, with, or without you the world gets wired.
 
Contrary to popular belief, every industry has the misfortune of having to draft from the human race. The electrical field is no different. When you find a factory that make perfect clones please post it here.:cool:
 
No consider this when you need medical care.

Unfortunately it happens there too, but the general education level in those fields is at a higher level to start with.

Those that could not become certified for whatever reasons, may still end up with a job doing similar work but with lesser requirements to be qualified for the job, something that maybe has the word "assistant" in the title. But not all "assistants" are bad either, maybe they worked up to that point from something else.

Bottom line is people have faults. Finding someone that genuinely cares about doing the right thing is really the part that maybe matters the most.

I find it hard to believe that all you seem to find is people that seem to not be too up to codes, or even theory, I have seen about as many on both sides of the scale - at least when it comes to business operators and managers or designers, inspectors, etc. I suppose the general labor guys can vary much more, and I have seen many people in that category that are simply robots that do what they are told but don't always know what they are doing all that well, and this goes for any trade or profession as well.
 
I used to think I was a good electrician. I was pretty fast, cared about my work, tried hard to do it correctly. Most people I knew said I was a good electrician.

Then I came here and realized, I don't know even 1/10th of what I should have known to be a "contractor".

The biggest problem I see in this industry (and most likely all industries) is that the people that don't know, don't know they don't know.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
I used to think I was a good electrician. I was pretty fast, cared about my work, tried hard to do it correctly. Most people I knew said I was a good electrician.

Then I came here and realized, I don't know even 1/10th of what I should have known to be a "contractor".

The biggest problem I see in this industry (and most likely all industries) is that the people that don't know, don't know they don't know.
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The ones that have something new pointed out to them and accept it are the ones that are respectable. There are many that just feel they can do no wrong - and they are wrong. (pun intended)
 
goldstar said:
Contrary to popular belief, every industry has the misfortune of having to draft from the human race. The electrical field is no different. When you find a factory that make perfect clones please post it here.:cool:
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Remember that half the people you will meet in this life will have IQ's of less than 100. :D
 
The colorful words used in the 2nd sentence pretty much made me realize that no response would be good enough for the 5 questions at the end.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
Then I came here and realized, I don't know even 1/10th of what I should have known to be a "contractor".
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Agreed. Same with me. I dont even consider myself a code expert at all nor am I perfect. Sometimes I find out that I have had a section wrong or misapplied all along. I couldnt tell you squat off the top of my ahead about class 1 locations, or boatyards ad marinas, but that is not what I am talking about or expect of people. I am just talking basics like ampacity, derating, tap rules, etc. To be able to design a feeder.

I find it hard to believe that all you seem to find is people that seem to not be too up to codes, or even theory, I have seen about as many on both sides of the scale
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This is just about basic code knowledge. Lack of Theory and workmanship is another whole issue the industry has problems with. I suppose if we wanted near perfect performance in these three areas, we could cost nearly as much as healthcare. In my experience, the inspectors need to be better. I rewired a house once and the one thing the inspector got fixated on my this old light fixture and whether or not it had insulation behind it to protect the ceiling. He didnt look at my box fill, wire routing, circuiting or any other basic like that. Another job I did was a 400 amp single phase service and that inspector got fixated that I had two conductors under each lug (they were listed for two in that size). We got talking about that and he said it was against code. He ended up not really looking at any other parts of the work I did. IMO he should of at a minimum looked at the GES, check that the MBJ was in, and looked for bonding bushings. I understand they probably have time restraints, but I really think most of these guys just dont know there stuff....
 
FYI, the serious question I am really looking for comments on is about your opinions on the knowledge level of inspectors and other electricians you come across on a day to day basis. Most of us on this forum are probably on the upper end of the knowledge spectrum so maybe it is easy to be hard on others, but just wondering if I am just unlucky in the people I am involved with or it is normal....
 
electrofelon said:
Agreed. Same with me. I dont even consider myself a code expert at all nor am I perfect. Sometimes I find out that I have had a section wrong or misapplied all along. I couldnt tell you squat off the top of my ahead about class 1 locations, or boatyards ad marinas, but that is not what I am talking about or expect of people. I am just talking basics like ampacity, derating, tap rules, etc. To be able to design a feeder.



This is just about basic code knowledge. Lack of Theory and workmanship is another whole issue the industry has problems with. I suppose if we wanted near perfect performance in these three areas, we could cost nearly as much as healthcare. In my experience, the inspectors need to be better. I rewired a house once and the one thing the inspector got fixated on my this old light fixture and whether or not it had insulation behind it to protect the ceiling. He didnt look at my box fill, wire routing, circuiting or any other basic like that. Another job I did was a 400 amp single phase service and that inspector got fixated that I had two conductors under each lug (they were listed for two in that size). We got talking about that and he said it was against code. He ended up not really looking at any other parts of the work I did. IMO he should of at a minimum looked at the GES, check that the MBJ was in, and looked for bonding bushings. I understand they probably have time restraints, but I really think most of these guys just dont know there stuff....
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I hear you. I see a lot of the same things at times.

Even other trades have similar issues.

Customers generally only care that the light turns on when they flip the switch or the toilet flushes when they trip the handle and price, until the day something fails and they possibly find out what was all done wrong.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
The biggest problem I see in this industry (and most likely all industries) is that the people that don't know, don't know they don't know.
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The beginning of understanding is the acknowledgement of ignorance.

I think Socrates is credited with saying something similar....
 
electrofelon said:
, but just wondering if I am just unlucky in the people I am involved with or it is normal....
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Most of the inspectors I deal with are pretty knowledgeable. I do run into "electricians" that are just like you say.

I find a lot of people just look at if it works, not the long term consequences. One of the problems in our trade is that a poorly (or even wrongly) installed system can work just fine ...... for a while. The original installer almost never gets called onto the carpet for the little things that should not have gone bad.
 
I deal with so called electricians and inspectors that lack knowledge. Some inspectors get stuck on one point (2 cables in one connector) that they don't check other important sections of the installation.

All I can recommend to them is get education and continue education. I tell electricians, just because you have been installing romex for the last 5 years throughout new construction you are not an electrician you are a romex installer. You still need to get educated in the trade.
 
I know someone that is a certified genius. A 'Mensan' as they are called. http://www.mensa.org/

He wouldn't have a clue as to what size wire would be required for an 800 amp service.

He has been called a moron more than once. He used to write a column in the local newspaper and would make fun of 'lesser' folk. It was hilarious, but if you were the type of person he ragged on, you may think otherwise. I have also heard people call him stupid.

So, when I hear folks talk of other folk's lack of knowledge, stupidity and incompetence, I always take that with a grain of salt.

When those folks start calling people morons, the whole shaker comes out.

This has been mentioned before and bears repeating. By definition, HALF of all people have an IQ of less than 100. To be a Mensan, you have to score in the top 2%. Just think how stupid the world looks to a Mensan. And even at that level of intelligence, people still get called morons.

Also, as someone mentioned, I thought I knew my stuff before I started reading this forum. I'll bet I have learned as much or more about the NEC here than I did in school, and I paid attention.

I see substandard work all the time. It's never going to go away. The best one can do is try to assure that their own work is up to par and speaks for itself.

But then we get bosses that tell us to do fast, crap work or get fired. Some of the stuff we think a 'stupid' person did, may have been done by a skilled hand under the gun of a greedy boss.
 
Everyone had to start somewhere and we all have made mistakes along the way. I am satisfied with the quality of electricians I have worked with. Recently I have worked on projects where the contractors are onboard during the design phase. There has been an interchange of beneficial input from both the contractor and the design team.

It appears some of the smaller electrical contracting firms are the ones to blame for cutting corners and doing shoddy work. I have seen some things that were appalling. For the most part, the more sizeable electrical contracting firm have performed well on their respective projects.

I have learned a lot from working with some of these new age electricians. There is also a recent trend where many of the project managers are also engineers and they bring a nice blend to the project team.
 
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