laundry 20 a circuit

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kwired said:
Read 210.11(C)(2):



What should it be changed to read? As it is worded at least one means you need to have one even if the owner does not intend to have a washer, but it also means there can be more than one.

210.23(A)(1) may require separate circuit be installed - depends on rating of washer - It is good practice to run separate circuit anyhow even if not required.
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Well the code must not be very clear, we are split here on this. Some say only one laundy circuit is required so a second room with a combo 240v only does not require 120v , 20 a ,others say there is no exception each laundry room must have at least one 20a . I think the code should say each residence must have at least one 120v 20a, and multiple wash rooms must each have a 120v 20a.
 
jetlag said:
Well the code must not be very clear, we are split here on this. Some say only one laundy circuit is required so a second room with a combo 240v only does not require 120v , 20 a ,others say there is no exception each laundry room must have at least one 20a . I think the code should say each residence must have at least one 120v 20a, and multiple wash rooms must each have a 120v 20a.
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I take that back , you could have 4 washers in the same wash room , does the code only require one 20 a for all ? What about the where the code says a circuit must be rated for the load served
 
thanks eprice

thanks eprice

eprice said:
I agree with this. 210.52(F) only requires one laundry receptacle and 210.11(C)(2) only requires one 20 amp circuit to supply it. Any other laundry receptacles and circuits are optional.
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This is very confusing, only one circuit is required but what if more washers are present, I think the code should make a reference in that case to go to the commercial derating of multiple washers and dryers like in a laundra mat
 
210.52(F) starts Laundry Areas. So to me one receptacle per area.

Additional circuits in the laundry area(s) may or may not fall under 220.14.

210.52(F) makes it sound like one receptacle MUST be installed for the (a) laundry.

I say if there is no laundry 'area' 210.52(F) does not apply.
 
jxofaltrds said:
210.52(F) starts Laundry Areas. So to me one receptacle per area.

Additional circuits in the laundry area(s) may or may not fall under 220.14.

210.52(F) makes it sound like one receptacle MUST be installed for the (a) laundry.

I say if there is no laundry 'area' 210.52(F) does not apply.
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210.52 (F)
(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.
Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises and are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.
Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.
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At least one receptacle must be installed for the laundry in a one-family dwelling. In multifamily dwellings you may not need to install a laundry receptacle per the exceptions.

210.11(C):
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.
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Again at least one laundry receptacle outlet is required - notice they made plural outlet(s) a possibility. This means you can feed other receptacles in the laundry area. The last sentence means no other outlets outside the laundry area are allowed on the circuit.

220.14(A) should cover load calculations for additional laundry receptacles that are otherwise not required. In a dwelling you could have as many of these as you wish. Read the last sentence of 210.11(B) concerning number of branch circuits that may be required.


(B) Load Evenly Proportioned Among Branch Circuits. Where the load is calculated on the basis of volt-amperes per square meter or per square foot, the wiring system up to and including the branch-circuit panelboard(s) shall be provided to serve not less than the calculated load. This load shall be evenly proportioned among multioutlet branch circuits within the panelboard(s). Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall be required to be installed only to serve the connected load.
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kwired said:
210.52 (F)



At least one receptacle must be installed for the laundry in a one-family dwelling. In multifamily dwellings you may not need to install a laundry receptacle per the exceptions.

210.11(C):


Again at least one laundry receptacle outlet is required - notice they made plural outlet(s) a possibility. This means you can feed other receptacles in the laundry area. The last sentence means no other outlets outside the laundry area are allowed on the circuit.

220.14(A) should cover load calculations for additional laundry receptacles that are otherwise not required. In a dwelling you could have as many of these as you wish. Read the last sentence of 210.11(B) concerning number of branch circuits that may be required.
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No laundry area, room, or facilities are required.

210.11(C)(2) only exists IF 210.52(F) exists.

You are correct that a recp. must be installed for the laundry. We agree.

Now tell me where it says we must have a laundry. 210.52(F) is a very short one line statement. It does not say for 'doing' laundry. It says FOR "the" laundry. It does not say for 'a' laundry.

No laundry no rept. outlet.

"In multifamily dwellings you may not need to install a laundry receptacle per the exceptions." Correct.

But I can install a laundry under the exceptions and have NO recp.

Notice in the exception it says "a" not 'the' laundry.
 
We are all getting hung up on the code only requires one 20a laundry circuit, that is true but if a customer hires us to run circuits to things the code doesnt require , we still have to wire that with the power requirements for the load served. It is no different for a customer to want additional washers/dryers than it is for a customer to want an outlet for an R V camper outlet, That is not required by code for a house to have that but if we run the circuit for the owner it still has to be wired by the proper code section. So for extra washers we would have to read the amp draw and also consider the start load on the motor and decide the circuit rating. We cant just tell the customer the code only requires one laundry circuit. The customer will say well I require 3 washers and dryers and Im paying you to wire it.
 
jetlag said:
We are all getting hung up on the code only requires one 20a laundry circuit, that is true but if a customer hires us to run circuits to things the code doesnt require , we still have to wire that with the power requirements for the load served. It is no different for a customer to want additional washers/dryers than it is for a customer to want an outlet for an R V camper outlet, That is not required by code for a house to have that but if we run the circuit for the owner it still has to be wired by the proper code section. So for extra washers we would have to read the amp draw and also consider the start load on the motor and decide the circuit rating. We cant just tell the customer the code only requires one laundry circuit. The customer will say well I require 3 washers and dryers and Im paying you to wire it.
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Hun????:confused:
 
jetlag said:
We are all getting hung up on the code only requires one 20a laundry circuit, that is true but if a customer hires us to run circuits to things the code doesnt require , we still have to wire that with the power requirements for the load served. It is no different for a customer to want additional washers/dryers than it is for a customer to want an outlet for an R V camper outlet, That is not required by code for a house to have that but if we run the circuit for the owner it still has to be wired by the proper code section. So for extra washers we would have to read the amp draw and also consider the start load on the motor and decide the circuit rating. We cant just tell the customer the code only requires one laundry circuit. The customer will say well I require 3 washers and dryers and Im paying you to wire it.
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The argument here is wether or not the second, third, and so on washer outlets within a single dwelling unit need to meet the same requirements as the first. If the second washer has a rating of 10 amps is the circuit feeding it allowed to feed other outlets not in the second laundry area? Most of us would probably say it is a goot idea to treat additional laundry outlets just like the first one for the reason of possibly overloading the circuit, but from what I read we don't necessarily have to to meet code requirements.
 
kwired said:
The argument here is wether or not the second, third, and so on washer outlets within a single dwelling unit need to meet the same requirements as the first. If the second washer has a rating of 10 amps is the circuit feeding it allowed to feed other outlets not in the second laundry area? Most of us would probably say it is a goot idea to treat additional laundry outlets just like the first one for the reason of possibly overloading the circuit, but from what I read we don't necessarily have to to meet code requirements.
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If you had two kitchens would you only use two circuits? No.

Anyone mentioned 220.52?
 
kwired said:
The argument here is wether or not the second, third, and so on washer outlets within a single dwelling unit need to meet the same requirements as the first. If the second washer has a rating of 10 amps is the circuit feeding it allowed to feed other outlets not in the second laundry area? Most of us would probably say it is a goot idea to treat additional laundry outlets just like the first one for the reason of possibly overloading the circuit, but from what I read we don't necessarily have to to meet code requirements.
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Well we better start giving this some thought because whole families are moving back in with parents because of the economy and are wanting and needing their own washers and dryers connected. The code says no other outlets can be served with the laundry circuit so I dont believe they want u to tap another washer outlet to it and double the load
 
jxofaltrds said:
If you had two kitchens would you only use two circuits? No.

Anyone mentioned 220.52?
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210.11 (C) (1) states that all outlets specified by 210.52(B) must be on at least two or more branch circuits. If you choose to only use two that is your design choice and not a choice made for you by NEC requirements. A second kitchen or second dining room could still be on the minimum requirement of only two circuits and be NEC compliant. (I would not likely design this way, but I could if I wished to.)

There is similar minimum requirements for laundry and baths in 210.11(C) (1) and (2) but only one circuit is required instead of two.

220.52 is for service and feeder calculations and is not in any way a requirement for how many circuits are to be installed.
 
thanks kwired

thanks kwired

Thanks for pointing out that 220.52 is for service load calculation only, there are those that seem to think that means you can put all the washers you want on one 20a circuit, the circuit has to be able to carry the load served .
 
jetlag said:
Well we better start giving this some thought because whole families are moving back in with parents because of the economy and are wanting and needing their own washers and dryers connected. The code says no other outlets can be served with the laundry circuit so I dont believe they want u to tap another washer outlet to it and double the load
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210.23 will not allow more than one washer on the circuit if the total load exceeds the BC rating.

The nameplate on my washer at home says 8 amps. I wouldn't hesitate one bit to plug in a second 8 amp washer into the same circuit. I see harder loading than this all the time on 20 amp circuits at construction sites and breakers don't trip too much unless overloaded more severely. Two 8 amp appliances that probably only draw 8 amps (if that) during the final spin cycle for maybe a minute or two would likely never trip a 20 amp breaker.

210.23(A)(1) will not allow any one cord and plug connected equipment not fastened in place to exceed 80 percent of BC rating. On a 20 amp circuit that is 16 amps. Not sure there are any household washers that would draw that much. Especially made in the last 10 - even 20 years.

Remember the NEC is a minimum standard. You can design however you wish beyond that standard. You could have only one receptacle per branch circuit throughout the entire dwelling if you wish. (With afci/gfci requirements we have now that can be pretty expensive)
 
kwired said:
210.11 (C) (1) states that all outlets specified by 210.52(B) must be on at least two or more branch circuits. If you choose to only use two that is your design choice and not a choice made for you by NEC requirements. A second kitchen or second dining room could still be on the minimum requirement of only two circuits and be NEC compliant. (I would not likely design this way, but I could if I wished to.)

There is similar minimum requirements for laundry and baths in 210.11(C) (1) and (2) but only one circuit is required instead of two.

220.52 is for service and feeder calculations and is not in any way a requirement for how many circuits are to be installed.
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210.52(B)3) *** No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
 
jxofaltrds said:
210.52(B)3) *** No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
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Thanks - I thought that requirement was there but was not finding it for some reason. Probably even looked at it and still missed it.

That said I think you could still have only two SABC's in the home and two kitchens with one SABC supplying each. Not saying it is a good idea but meets NEC requirements. If you have more than two kitchens then you must have more than two SABC's.

Places where this may become an issue are places that by their design you have to start thinking about whether or not you are dealing with a single dwelling unit or not. Some mansions although you may consider them a single family dwelling are a little more like a hotel or resort the way they are built. In those cases each kitchen may be a part of separate dwelling units and each one will require at least two SABC's.
 
kwired said:
Thanks - I thought that requirement was there but was not finding it for some reason. Probably even looked at it and still missed it.

That said I think you could still have only two SABC's in the home and two kitchens with one SABC supplying each. Not saying it is a good idea but meets NEC requirements. If you have more than two kitchens then you must have more than two SABC's.

Places where this may become an issue are places that by their design you have to start thinking about whether or not you are dealing with a single dwelling unit or not. Some mansions although you may consider them a single family dwelling are a little more like a hotel or resort the way they are built. In those cases each kitchen may be a part of separate dwelling units and each one will require at least two SABC's.
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Page 70-53 NEC210 .52 (B)(3) last sentence.
 
thanks jxofaltrds

thanks jxofaltrds

jxofaltrds said:
210.52(B)3) *** No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.
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A lot of people missed that including me.. This house not only has two laundrys but also two kitchens the master bed on 3rd level has its own kitchen but not a full size range, only c top hot plate, I will wire it like same as any other kitchen not matter if the code doesnt require, the 2 nd wash room will also have its own 20a but not add that to service load calculations
 
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