laundry room outlets

[M. D.]

2-97 Log #3259
(210.11(C)(2)(a))
Panel statement;
"The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-
ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the
branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated
with doing laundry, such as an iron.

Receptacles installed in a laundry area
intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as
presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the
addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area."

Learning,.. always learning . it is not the area that matters most but rather , it is what the receptacle is intended to serve. Sometimes this is obvious and sometimes not .

 

[dnem]

Learning,.. always learning . it is not the area that matters most but rather , it is what the receptacle is intended to serve. Sometimes this is obvious and sometimes not .

So for the inspection, what I said before is the way the inspector should approach it. The inspector should allow room for customer/contractor definition.

When we see a second (or third or fourth) receptacle on the same circuit as the clotheswasher, we assume they are plugs designated for laundry usage (ironing etc). As long as the circuit doesn?t leave the laundry area or include hardwired lights, then the circuit complies with 210.11(C).

When we see a circuit other than the clotheswasher (& gas dryer) circuit come into the laundry area and supply the second (or third or fourth) receptacle, we assume those plugs are general purpose which can be on 20a or 15a and include hardwired lights.

The only thing we?re looking for is that the circuit supplying the clotheswasher (& gas dryer) is 20a, doesn?t supply outlets outside of the laundry area, and doesn?t supply hardwired lighting outlets.

David

 

[LarryFine]

So for the inspection, what I said before is the way the inspector should approach it. The inspector should allow room for customer/contractor definition.

Agreed, just like in the "is it a hall/foyer or a room?" debate.

 

[iwire]

The only thing we?re looking for is that the circuit supplying the clotheswasher (& gas dryer) is 20a, doesn't supply outlets outside of the laundry area, and doesn?t supply hardwired lighting outlets.

David

David strictly speaking the NEC does not require that.

Put the required laundry outlet in the laundry area and than I can supply the washer with an optional 15 amp circuit.

Don't know why someone would go that route but it is not prohibited.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

From Bob
"Put the required laundry outlet in the laundry area and than I can supply the washer with an optional 15 amp circuit."

Is it that the code permits the washer to be supplied by an additional 15 ampere circuit, or is it the "laundry area" is permitted to have other circuits installed within the area?

 

[iwire]

Is it that the code permits the washer to be supplied by an additional 15 ampere circuit, or is it the "laundry area" is permitted to have other circuits installed within the area?

Do you have a code section that requires the 20 amp circuit to supply anything other than a receptacle?

The CMP could have called it a laundry appliance circuit but they did not, it is a laundry area circuit.

Before you say I am twisting it lets think about it.

If we install to code minimum that 20 amp circuit will supply the washer and perhaps the dryer along with as many other receptacles in that room for ironing, portable heater etc.

If we go beyond code and bring in more circuits be they 15 or 20 amp why would the NEC care which supplies which?

Once we bring in additional circuits we have more available power in the room than code minimum.

I bet there are Irons that take more power to operate than either a washer or gas dryer.

So why not use the 20 amp circuit for the ironing area?

 

[dnem]

David strictly speaking the NEC does not require that.

Put the required laundry outlet in the laundry area and than I can supply the washer with an optional 15 amp circuit.

Don't know why someone would go that route but it is not prohibited.

If your idea is correct, how do you explain the fact that there is no 210.52(B)(1)x2 type wording in 210.11(C)(2) ?

If the clotheswasher/gas dryer plug isn't one and the same as the "laundry" plug, how do you explain that 210.52(F)x2 uses the word "laundry" istead of saying clotheswasher/gas dryer ? 210.52(F)x2 obviously isn't talking about whether or not a plug for the iron is "not to be installed or permitted".

Your idea was a good try and an interesting thing to think about, but I don't think it can be supported by code wording.

David

 

[George Stolz]

If your idea is correct, how do you explain the fact that there is no 210.52(B)(1)x2 type wording in 210.11(C)(2) ?

IMO, because the CMP doesn't view it as forbidding or requiring the washer/iron to be on the required circuit in the first place. They see it as open-ended, do with it what you want, so long as it's there and available to laundry equipment and not leaving the area for other uses.

 

[hillbilly]

What if the washer dryer is a combo unit and requires (1) 30A 240 circuit?
Do I still need a 120V laundry receptacle?
If so, will a receptacle on a general use circuit suffice?
steve

 

[charlie b]

What if the washer dryer is a combo unit and requires (1) 30A 240 circuit? Do I still need a 120V laundry receptacle?

Yes. The intent is to provide a circuit that can serve the needs of the homeowner. If that HO buys a different model of washer and dryer, or if the house is sold to someone else, the house must have a circuit available to serve the laundry.

If so, will a receptacle on a general use circuit suffice?

No. The rules for the laundry circuit do not disappear, if you install a special circuit for a special type of laundry equipment.

 

[charlie b]

. . . do with it what you want, so long as it's there and available to laundry equipment and not leaving the area for other uses.

Thank you, George, for saving me the trouble of bringing up that point. It is related to other discussions on similar topics between myself and other Forum members. I continue to believe that once the HO gets the keys, the NEC ceases to govern what goes on inside the house. Of course, any changes made to the premises wiring system will bring the NEC back into play. But if the HO wants to plug an iron (or a TV or a lamp or a stereo or a freezer or anything else for that matter) into the circuit that you installed per the NEC rules on laundry circuits, then nothing in the NEC can prohibit it.

 

[iwire]

Your idea was a good try and an interesting thing to think about, but I don't think it can be supported by code wording.

David

Good try?

It is actually correct.

What can not be supported by code wording is that the 20 amp laundry circuit must supply the washer and or dryer.

 

[dnem]

Good try?

It is actually correct.

What can not be supported by code wording is that the 20 amp laundry circuit must supply the washer and or dryer.

You're avoiding the issue

I said before
210.52(F)x2 obviously isn't talking about whether or not a plug for the iron is "not to be installed or permitted"

Pick which of the following 2 options defines the word "laundry" by usage.

1) 210.52(F)x2 "In other than one-family dwellings where clotheswasher and gas dryer facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a clotheswasher and gas dryer receptacle shall not be required."

2) 210.52(F)x2 "In other than one-family dwellings where ironing facilities are not to be installed or permitted, an iron receptacle shall not be required."

Just because there isn't a definition for the word "laundry" in article 100 or anywhere else in the NEC doesn't mean that the meaning can't be determined by context.

David

 

[dnem]

IMO, because the CMP doesn't view it as forbidding or requiring the washer/iron to be on the required circuit in the first place. They see it as open-ended, do with it what you want, so long as it's there and available to laundry equipment and not leaving the area for other uses.

"CMP doesn't view"

Where does that conclusion come from ?

David

 

[iwire]

You're avoiding the issue

David I am not avoiding anything.

You are stuck in the old trap many of us get caught in.

You are sure the code says a certain thing because you have always assumed it says what you think it says.

I ask you again to read this section carefully as if you have never seen the NEC before in your lifetime.

210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises and are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.

Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.

Do you see any words that specify that the circuit shall supply a washer or dryer?

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

Do you see anything in that section that specifies the circuit shall supply a washer or dryer?

All we are required to do is provide a 20 amp circuit for the laundry.

It really is that simple.

 

[dnem]

David I am not avoiding anything.

You're avoiding my question.

The word "laundry" has a meaning. It isn't a nonsensical word.
I'm asking you if the meaning can be determined by the context and you're avoiding the question.

David

 

[charlie b]

In both of the two dictionaries at my immediate disposal, the word "laundry" is defined essentially as (1) Clothes in need of washing or that have recently been washed, and (2) A place where clothes are washed.

In neither of these two dictionaries is there a statement that the machines that do the washing are also covered by the definition of "laundry."

Anybody have a dictionary that says anything significantly different?

 

[iwire]

You're avoiding my question.

The word "laundry" has a meaning. It isn't a nonsensical word.
I'm asking you if the meaning can be determined by the context and you're avoiding the question.

David

I guess I am just missing your point.

Is it your opinion that the word 'laundry' actually means washing and drying appliances?

If that is what your saying I disagree.

The 'laundry' is a place you do laundry no more, no less.

Lets say I wire code minimum with a single 20 amp receptacle to satisfy 210.52(F) and going beyond code I install a 30 amp 250 volt 'dryer' outlet

Now the people move in and install a stacked combo washer dryer unit that only has one 250 volt 30 amp cord cap that powers both appliances.

By your interpretation that would be a code violation as you believe you must use the 210.52(F) receptacle to feed the laundry appliances.

There are no words in the NEC to support your view.

 

[iwire]

Anybody have a dictionary that says anything significantly different?

Not I, and I have never heard the word 'laundry' used to describe washer and dryers.

To me that would be like saying the word 'garage' means automobiles.

 

[charlie b]

I said before, 210.52(F)x2 obviously isn't talking about whether or not a plug for the iron is "not to be installed or permitted"

Is it clear to other persons than myself that, when this exception mentions, "not to be installed or permitted," the AHJ is not the authority that decides what is, and what is not, "to be permitted"? That exception is talking about the owner. The NEC often uses language along the lines of, ". . . it shall be permitted to . . . ." By here, the owner is the authority. The owner decided what is "to be permitted."

If a person decides to build an apartment building, for example, and decides that there will be a coin-operated laundry facility available to all tenants, and decides that no tenant will "be permitted" to have a laundry of their own (meaning a place where clothes are to be washed, regardless of what type(s) of machines the tenant might desire to purchase and use), then and only then does this exception come into play. The owner says that laundry will not be installed, and that no tenant will be permitted to install laundry. Therefore, using the second exception to 210.52(F), the electrical contractor does not need to install a laundry circuit in each unit.