laundry room outlets

[charlie b]

To me that would be like saying the word 'garage' means automobiles.

You mean that there are garages with automobiles in them?

 

[iwire]

You mean that there are garages with automobiles in them?

Well I have heard rumors of that happening but never at my house.

 

[George Stolz]

"CMP doesn't view"

Where does that conclusion come from ?

David

Here are all the panel statements regarding all the proposals to the 2008, 210.11(C)(2). I have omitted "insufficient substantiation" comments.

• 2-95 The current text provides for minimum installation requirements. An additional circuit may be provided for compact or stacked laundry equipment.
• 2-94 The laundry branch circuit is intended to supply one or more receptacle outlets for electrical appliances that are typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes.
• 2-97 The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.
• 2-98 The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).

M.D. posted the most compelling one, 2-97. They flat out state they consider ironing to be a part of laundering.

2-98 was mine. They don't consider the requirement to be governing equipment, but rather, an undefined area, IMO.

 

[adrian33773]

First of all there is usually two circuits any way. The washer and the dryer are on two completely different circuits. A 120v and a 240v. The blueprints on the condos I'm working on call for 5 circuits in the laundry room. One dedicated to the washer only, one for the dryer only, one for the water softener and iron, one for the air handler and one general purpose outlet located under the service panel. And its all in one small room (8' x 10'). Oh, I forgot, the water heater is also in that same room. It also has a built-in counter top for sorting and folding clothes. So I guess you could call it a utility room but the blueprints refer to it as the laundry room.

 

[M. D.]

laundry (workplace where clothes are washed and ironed)

Soiled or laundered clothes and linens; wash.
A commercial establishment for laundering clothes or linens.
A room or an area, as in a house, for doing the wash.

 

[dnem]

Is it clear to other persons than myself that, when this exception mentions, "not to be installed or permitted," the AHJ is not the authority that decides what is, and what is not, "to be permitted"? That exception is talking about the owner. The NEC often uses language along the lines of, ". . . it shall be permitted to . . . ." By here, the owner is the authority. The owner decided what is "to be permitted."

Who makes the decision on permitting or not permitting laundry was never the subject being discussed on this thread and I strongly doubt that anyone would argue that the AHJ would be involved in deciding about inclusion of a laundry.

 

[dnem]

Here are all the panel statements regarding all the proposals to the 2008, 210.11(C)(2). I have omitted "insufficient substantiation" comments.

• 2-95 The current text provides for minimum installation requirements. An additional circuit may be provided for compact or stacked laundry equipment.
• 2-94 The laundry branch circuit is intended to supply one or more receptacle outlets for electrical appliances that are typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes.
• 2-97 The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.
• 2-98 The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).

M.D. posted the most compelling one, 2-97. They flat out state they consider ironing to be a part of laundering.

2-98 was mine. They don't consider the requirement to be governing equipment, but rather, an undefined area, IMO.

Is there anything here that would lead anybody to believe that the clotheswasher isn't laundry equipment ?

Take them one at a time

2-95 The current text provides for minimum installation requirements. An additional circuit may be provided for compact or stacked laundry equipment.

So can the definition of "laundry equipment" be determined by these words ? Is there such a thing as compact or stacked ironing boards ? I think everybody knows that the laundry equipment spoken about here is the clotheswasher and dryer.

2-94 The laundry branch circuit is intended to supply one or more receptacle outlets for electrical appliances that are typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes.

Is the clotheswasher "typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes" ?
That is what "the laundry branch circuit is intended to supply" !

2-97 The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.

"dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry"
It specifically lists the example of "such as an iron" but is there other "electrical equipment associated with doing laundry" in the laundry room ? What would that equipment be ?

2-98 The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).

"The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text."
The code panel evidently thinks it has been clear enough and there's no reason for further clarity and yet here we are debating on this thread.

I now realize that there are people here that will never admit to restrictions on the clotheswasher circuit unless the specific word "clotheswasher" is used in the NEC.

I see this as a clearly unreasonable position to take.

David

 

[George Stolz]

"The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text."
The code panel evidently thinks it has been clear enough and there's no reason for further clarity and yet here we are debating on this thread.

It was a similar thread that spurred the proposal. Click here. IMO, this section's not entirely clear.

I now realize that there are people here that will never admit to restrictions on the clotheswasher circuit unless the specific word "clotheswasher" is used in the NEC.

I see this as a clearly unreasonable position to take.

So, take that logic and spin it around. We know that an iron is considered a laundering appliance, by the CMP's statement and the dictionary definitions. So, would a 15A dedicated circuit for an iron in a dedicated space be illegal, if the 20A "washer" circuit were already installed?

 

[charlie b]

Is there anything here that would lead anybody to believe that the clotheswasher isn't laundry equipment ? . . . Is the clotheswasher "typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes" ? That is what "the laundry branch circuit is intended to supply" !

I will concede that a washer is laundry equipment. I'd ask you to concede that the NEC does not mention "laundry equipment"; it mentions "laundry."

It specifically lists the example of "such as an iron" but is there other "electrical equipment associated with doing laundry" in the laundry room ? What would that equipment be ?

Pants press? Hand-held steamer (blows steam at a sweater hung on a rack, to take out the wrinkles)? Heated towel drying rack (I have one of these)?

I now realize that there are people here that will never admit to restrictions on the clotheswasher circuit unless the specific word "clotheswasher" is used in the NEC. I see this as a clearly unreasonable position to take.

I will admit that I no longer know what position you are trying to take. I will state my position as follows:

(1) Install a 20 amp circuit to which you connect one or more receptacles in the laundry area, and to which you connect no lights and no receptacles outside the laundry area.

(2) Install as many other 15 or 20 amp circuits as you like, with some powering receptacles in the laundry area and also powering lights and receptacles in other rooms.

(3) Then leave the home to the HO.

(4) If the HO chooses to plug a TV into "the 20 amp circuit that was put there for the laundry," and chooses to plug the washer into a 15 amp circuit that also serves basement lights, that is not a code violation.

Can you run through your position for me? No defense, no explanations, just state your position, so we can be clear about any further discussions.

 

[hillbilly]

Yes. The intent is to provide a circuit that can serve the needs of the homeowner. If that HO buys a different model of washer and dryer, or if the house is sold to someone else, the house must have a circuit available to serve the laundry.


No. The rules for the laundry circuit do not disappear, if you install a special circuit for a special type of laundry equipment.

I meant to add to my question. If the homeowner decides to buy a combo wash/dry unit and and plug in a freezer in the space that was intended for the washing machine, thereby hiding the 20A laundry circuit, would you add another laundry circuit? I realize that I've met the intent of the code with the first 20A laundry receptacle, but the homeowner still doesn't have a place to plug in his/her iron (unless it's a general use receptacle).
Which is safer, a iron plugged into a general use receptacle or a extension cord run under the freezer for the iron? I've thought of adding another receptacle to the laundry circuit, but if the freezer is more than 10A (haven't seen it yet), i'm still SOL.
I realize that the homeowner created the problem, but he just gave me a (glowing) referral on another new home (that's close to home), and I want him to be happy.
I'll probably install (and eat) another dedicated circuit to the laundry room.
Service Sells.
steve

 

[dnem]

So, take that logic and spin it around. We know that an iron is considered a laundering appliance, by the CMP's statement and the dictionary definitions. So, would a 15A dedicated circuit for an iron in a dedicated space be illegal, if the 20A "washer" circuit were already installed?

Yes, non-code compliant

A second (or third or fourth) receptacle on the same circuit as the clotheswasher, on rough inspection would be assumed to be plugs designated for laundry usage (ironing etc). As long as the circuit is 12gauge 20amp, doesn?t leave the laundry area, and doesn't include hardwired lights, then the circuit complies with 210.11(C).

A circuit other than the clotheswasher (& gas dryer) circuit that comes into the laundry area and supplies the second (or third or fourth) receptacle, would be assumed to be plugs that are general purpose which can be on 20a or 15a, can include hardwired lights, and can leave the laundry room/area to power other items.

But, you didn't say general purpose, you specifically stated that the circuit was for an iron which is laundry equipment that must be on a laundry circuit.

David

 

[dnem]

Is there anything here that would lead anybody to believe that the clotheswasher isn't laundry equipment ? . . . Is the clotheswasher "typically used for the purpose of laundering clothes" ? That is what "the laundry branch circuit is intended to supply" !

I will concede that a washer is laundry equipment. I'd ask you to concede that the NEC does not mention "laundry equipment"; it mentions "laundry."

The NEC doesn't but the code panel comments that are being discussed do

It specifically lists the example of "such as an iron" but is there other "electrical equipment associated with doing laundry" in the laundry room ? What would that equipment be ?

Pants press? Hand-held steamer (blows steam at a sweater hung on a rack, to take out the wrinkles)? Heated towel drying rack (I have one of these)?

And ?.. keep going ?.. what else ? Is the code panel referring to the clotheswasher as ?laundry equipment? or not ?

I will admit that I no longer know what position you are trying to take. I will state my position as follows:

(1) Install a 20 amp circuit to which you connect one or more receptacles in the laundry area, and to which you connect no lights and no receptacles outside the laundry area.

(2) Install as many other 15 or 20 amp circuits as you like, with some powering receptacles in the laundry area and also powering lights and receptacles in other rooms.

(3) Then leave the home to the HO.

(4) If the HO chooses to plug a TV into "the 20 amp circuit that was put there for the laundry," and chooses to plug the washer into a 15 amp circuit that also serves basement lights, that is not a code violation.

I agree with everything that you?re saying.
Code violations are installation not usage.
But I would need to add a 5th item to your list of 4.

There?s a concept in the code called ?dedicated space? [found in places like 210.8(A)(2)x2 & 210.8(A)(5)x2]. That concept also allows determination of location of other items like 210.52(B)(1)x2. Using this same concept, it can usually be determined by plumbing where the clothesdryer will be located. The plug behind that space would need to be on the 12gauge 20a, no hardwired lights, no other room/area outlets circuit.

A permanently installed ironing board/plug combo that folds down out of the wall would need to be on the 12gauge 20a, no hardwired lights, no other room/area outlets circuit. It could be on the same circuit as the clotheswasher or a separate one. The iron itself need not be present. The permanently mounted ironing board is ?dedicated space? for the ?laundry? equipment called an iron.

David

 

[dnem]

I meant to add to my question. If the homeowner decides to buy a combo wash/dry unit and and plug in a freezer in the space that was intended for the washing machine, thereby hiding the 20A laundry circuit, would you add another laundry circuit? I realize that I've met the intent of the code with the first 20A laundry receptacle, but the homeowner still doesn't have a place to plug in his/her iron (unless it's a general use receptacle).
Which is safer, a iron plugged into a general use receptacle or a extension cord run under the freezer for the iron? I've thought of adding another receptacle to the laundry circuit, but if the freezer is more than 10A (haven't seen it yet), i'm still SOL.
I realize that the homeowner created the problem, but he just gave me a (glowing) referral on another new home (that's close to home), and I want him to be happy.
I'll probably install (and eat) another dedicated circuit to the laundry room.
Service Sells.
steve

"I've thought of adding another receptacle to the laundry circuit, but if the freezer is more than 10A (haven't seen it yet), i'm still SOL.
I realize that the homeowner created the problem, but he just gave me a (glowing) referral on another new home (that's close to home), and I want him to be happy.
I'll probably install (and eat) another dedicated circuit to the laundry room.
Service Sells."

These words lead me to believe that this project is a remodel or a rework from a previous design. If on the remodel/rework, the clotheswasher plug circuit is now being designated as a freezer plug circuit, then you no longer have the required 120volt laundry circuit [I'm assuming the combo unit is 240v].

Which is safer, a iron plugged into a general use receptacle or a extension cord run under the freezer for the iron?

That's an easy one ! No extension cords ! They're trip hazards and fire hazards and you should never plan an installation to have one. If those are the only options for hte homeowner then the iron should be plugged into the 15a general purpose plug which is where most of them are already being powered in houses where the laundry circuit is a single plug hidden behind the clotheswasher.

But the question at this point isn't what should the homeowner do ? You're still in the process of doing the electrical on this project and you're required to provide a 120v laundry circuit before you're done.

Now the question of how the inspector might react to your project may be a different outcome. He may see the 240v combo unit landry plug and just keep walking. You could get a green sticker and move onto your next job.

David

 

[goldstar]

If you do a search within this forum for the term "laundry" or "laundry circuits" you will get anywhere from 144 to 256 hits. Doesn't anyone think it's high time a future CMP makes an attempt to make this perfectly clear ? Apparently, it's not enough to have Mike Holt or Charles Miller give an interpretation on this matter. Obviously, many of us have varying opinions.

 

[iwire]

I now realize that there are people here that will never admit to restrictions on the clotheswasher circuit unless the specific word "clotheswasher" is used in the NEC.

That would be me Dave, it is odd of me to want specific words used in a code book.

I see this as a clearly unreasonable position to take

What I see as unreasonable is the assumption that the CMP can't say what they mean.

You seem to think that you know what they meant even though they did not say it.

I will not agree to disagree here, IMO you are clearly mistaken.

 

[George Stolz]

A permanently installed ironing board/plug combo that folds down out of the wall would need to be on the 12gauge 20a, no hardwired lights, no other room/area outlets circuit. It could be on the same circuit as the clotheswasher or a separate one. The iron itself need not be present. The permanently mounted ironing board is ?dedicated space? for the ?laundry? equipment called an iron.

Let's go a step further. The iron in the dedicated space is hardwired.

What do we do?

 

[George Stolz]

But, you didn't say general purpose, you specifically stated that the circuit was for an iron which is laundry equipment that must be on a laundry circuit.

Suppose a free-standing ironing board were on the plans, next to a narrow closet that you suspect is supposed to house the ironing board when not in use. Suppose the closest receptacle was 4' away, and on a dedicated 15A branch circuit.

Pass or fail?

Just getting a feel for your opinion. I agree with you that they intend to get the washer on that required circuit. I believe the words fall far short of enforceability on that point.

 

[iwire]

I agree with you that they intend to get the washer on that required circuit.

Why then did they not say it?

Do these CMP members live in a vacuum?

Do they not know the meaning of the words they do or do not chose?

Do they not know that ECs and Inspectors will be dissecting the words they do choose.

Not picking on you George I just don't understand why we are looking for requirements that are not they.

Indulge me while I repost.

If we install to code minimum that 20 amp circuit will supply the washer and perhaps the dryer along with as many other receptacles in that room for ironing, portable heater etc.

If we go beyond code and bring in more circuits be they 15 or 20 amp why would the NEC care which supplies which?

Once we bring in additional circuits we have more available power in the room than code minimum.

I bet there are Irons that take more power to operate than either a washer or gas dryer.

 

[e57]

WOW!!!!!

 

[iwire]

WOW!!!!!

Mark you can't just drop in and say WOW!!!! without at least stating your opinion.