laundry room outlets

[iwire]

Bob, this is the same CMP that took both sides of the appliance garage issue in the 2005. Sometimes, they do put the blinders on and pretend there's nothing wrong.

Or....there is not as much wrong as some people like to believe.

Perhaps the CMP is asking "How come these people just don't use the words we put in the book and move on?"

Of course it is not perfect nothing is.

However, come on now in this case if they specifically meant laundry appliances they would IMO simply say that.

I think we owe them a bit of respect (of course that is diminishing as the code becomes a sales tool) Perhaps they wrote what they meant.

My gut tells me they intend for the washer to be on it.

Why? is it because that is the first way you every thought of the requirement?

If it is the only circuit in the space it will supply the washer, if there are multiple circuits in the space why would they care?

What other appliance gets that 'special' treatment to get a mandated specific circuit?

The circuit for central heating must be an individual circuit, but do DWs, DISPs, MICROs, GDOs, Central vac etc get a specified circuit.

Of course other areas get specified circuits like bathrooms, kitchens etc.

IMO All they want is a minimum of one 20 amp circuit that only feeds that space do with it what you will

 

[JohnE]

This thread really hit it?s central point of argument here:
http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?p=595659#post595659



David

If I answered off the top of my head I'd have sided with you, David. But now I'm not sure. Can I think about it for a day and weigh in later? Thanks for really clearing up what the 2 opposing views are. I was seriously uncertain.

John

 

[George Stolz]

However, come on now in this case if they specifically meant laundry appliances they would IMO simply say that.

I see it two ways: They want the area special, or the appliances in the area. The appliances route makes more sense.

Is there a third option?

In any case, the Style Manual 3.2.1 tells them they need to avoid the vague and unenforceable. Use of the one word term "laundry" is vague, in my book. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If it is the only circuit in the space it will supply the washer, if there are multiple circuits in the space why would they care?

For that matter, why have 210.11(C)(2) at all? Isn't 210.23 good enough? (Furiously stirring the pot...)

 

[bikeindy]

I see it two ways: They want the area special, or the appliances in the area. The appliances route makes more sense.

Is there a third option?

In any case, the Style Manual 3.2.1 tells them they need to avoid the vague and unenforceable. Use of the one word term "laundry" is vague, in my book. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


For that matter, why have 210.11(C)(2) at all? Isn't 210.23 good enough? (Furiously stirring the pot...)

except that 210.23 refers to 210.11 (C)(2) that makes it dificult to eliminate 210.11.

Look 210.52(F) tells us that we need at least one receptacle outlet in the laundry. 210.11 goes further and tells us to install at least one more 20 Amp circuit to tha laundry outlets and that it have no other outlets. It is simple! this could be for the Ironing area of the laundry even if you put in the washer on a 15 amp receptacle circuit. It does not say it is for the washer!

 

[dnem]

Look 210.52(F) tells us that we need at least one receptacle outlet in the laundry. 210.11 goes further and tells us to install at least one more 20 Amp circuit to tha laundry outlets and that it have no other outlets. It is simple! this could be for the Ironing area of the laundry even if you put in the washer on a 15 amp receptacle circuit. It does not say it is for the washer!

"210.11 goes further and tells us to install at least one more 20 Amp circuit to tha laundry outlets"

You're not reading this the right way. 210.11 & 210.52 are complimentary. It's not talking about 2 different circuits. It's talking about 2 different concepts that may or may not refer to the same plug and/or circuit.
210.11 is Branch Circuits Required
210.52 is Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets
210.11(C)(2) says you have to have at least one laundry circuit
210.52(F) says you have to have at least one laundry plug [known as a "receptacle outlet" by the upper class of society]

There is no requirement to supply 2 "laundry" circuits.

It is simple! this could be for the Ironing area of the laundry even if you put in the washer on a 15 amp receptacle circuit. It does not say it is for the washer!

You seem to be assuming that the 210.52(F) receptacle can be on a 15amp circuit because you're looking at 210.11(C)(2) & 210.52(F) as 2 different animals.

David

 

[Bill W]

It is my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that there is a difference between a dedicated ckt. and a 20amp ckt. A 20amp ckt. being any ckt. on a 20amp breaker. A dedicated ckt. being one with no other outlets.
Of course, in a residence any receptacle on a 20 amp ckt. can be rated at 15 amps.
210.21(B)(3). That is, a 15A receptacle is rated for a 20A ckt.
One dedicated ckt. for the washer and or dryer should meet the code. Any additional ckts. are convinience ckts.

 

[dnem]

I think that is the right way to do things. But I think you are going too far by using the phrase, "dedicated space for the clotheswasher," because the NEC couldn't care less where the pipes are run.

210.50(C) uses the words "intended location of the appliance" which is similiar wording to "dedicated space" [210.8(A)(2)x2 & 210.8(A)(5)x2]. Intended location or dedicated space for the clotheswasher is most easily determined by waterlines.

Let me be specific. If the HO puts the washer close to the receptacle that is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and if the HO has to run an extra 10 feet of hot water, cold water, and discharge water hoses, in order to reach the faucets and the sink, the NEC would be perfectly satisfied. There is a 20 amp circuit that provides power to one receptacle in that room and has no other outlets, and that satisfies the NEC. The NEC does not require the receptacle to be near any pipes, faucets, or sinks. As Bob said much earlier, I can't think why a HO might want to do that, but I believe the NEC does not forbid it.

As long as they run the extra 10 feet of waterline before I get there for the final, I don't have any problem with it. But if the new pipe isn't there when I get there, I'm going to make a judgment call about the "intended location of the appliance".

David

 

[dnem]

Compiled by Jeff Sargent & the NFPA electrical engineering team at necdigest

I have met Jeff Sargent at a seminar in Ohio. He told me that he wrote the NEC Hankbook Commentary sections for code panel #2 and some other panels as well. He works for NFPA but the code panel members are independent from the NFPA.

 

[dnem]

It is my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that there is a difference between a dedicated ckt. and a 20amp ckt. A 20amp ckt. being any ckt. on a 20amp breaker. A dedicated ckt. being one with no other outlets.
Of course, in a residence any receptacle on a 20 amp ckt. can be rated at 15 amps.
210.21(B)(3). That is, a 15A receptacle is rated for a 20A ckt.
One dedicated ckt. for the washer and or dryer should meet the code. Any additional ckts. are convinience ckts.

You're right about there being a difference between dedicated and restricted to 20amps. A dedicated circuit is fine for the clotheswasher but not required. What is required to be supplied by the restricted 20amp "laundry" circuit is what is being debated here.

David

 

[Bill W]

Ok. I think my post vanished! As I was saying... It is my understanding that a 20A ckt. is any ckt. on a 20A breaker. And a dedicated ckt. serves no other outlets. Of course in a residence, a fifteen amp rated receptacle is suitable for a 20amp rated ckt., dedicated or otherwise. 210.21(B)(3).
One dedicated ckt. to serve washer and dryer should meet code, any additional ckts. in that room are convenience ckts.

 

[Bill W]

2-97 Log #3259
(210.11(C)(2)(a))
Panel statement;
"The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-
ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the
branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated
with doing laundry, such as an iron.

Receptacles installed in a laundry area
intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as
presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the
addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area."

Learning,.. always learning . it is not the area that matters most but rather , it is what the receptacle is intended to serve. Sometimes this is obvious and sometimes not .

I like what you said here, though I'm not sure how it is supported by code...ie, the part about equipment associated with doing laundry. 210.11(C)(2) refers me to 210.52(F). OHHHH! One ckt for the "laundry" and one ckt. for the laundry recepatacles! Brilliant!

 

[George Stolz]

Bill, welcome to the forum.

It is my understanding that a 20A ckt. is any ckt. on a 20A breaker.

Correct.

And a dedicated ckt. serves no other outlets.

If you're referring to what the NEC calls an "individual branch circuit", that is not entirely correct.

Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies

only one utilization equipment.​

​

That makes no restriction on the number of outlets to supply that one utilization equipment.​

Of course in a residence, a fifteen amp rated receptacle is suitable for a 20amp rated ckt., dedicated or otherwise. 210.21(B)(3).

Careful - see 210.21(B)(1).​

One dedicated ckt. to serve washer and dryer should meet code, any additional ckts. in that room are convenience ckts.

The crux of the argument is, if you supply some laundry equipment with the required circuit and outlet(s), and then stop, and then provide the washer with a receptacle powered by an individual 15A branch circuit or a general purpose receptacle, on a 15A circuit (in accordance with 210.23), is it legal?​

I say it is technically legal, but not what they intended to get done. The words are not restrictive enough to require all laundry equipment to be on the circuit, IMO.​

​