LED: Replace versus Retrofit

[steve66]

Replacement is best in terms of energy savings, but retrofits can be so cheap it may be hard to sell a client on a replacement unless you can convince them having all new, modern looking fixtures is worth something.

Power companies may have instant rebates on LED tubes, which can make these cheaper than fluorescent tubes. But LED tubes usually operate at a lower power than the fluorescent tubes, and usually put out less light also. If you have a space that is only lit so-so, doing a retrofit can make it look terrible.

 

[ActionDave]

I want to see a wiring diagram of the tube to see how that could possibly work.

I just checked Keystone website, all I checked were non-shunted line voltage power on one end types. Even sell wiring kit to make sure.

Go find a diagram of you want I know what I put in and it's over a thousand at this time. The first generation 4' tubes were single ended L and N, non shunted tombstones. All the ones I put in now are double ended.

Bing video

www.bing.com

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...=&form=VDSHOT&shth=OSH.IbGZ0IWCGTQ5c52TtVaKUA

 

[Frank DuVal]

All the ones I put in now are double ended.

You mean line on one end, neutral on the other? Then yes, that is a common style. I thought you meant the same tube could take L-N on one end, or L on one end and N on the other. That's what I wanted to see an internal diagram of. I like to know HOW it works, when logic says there is a short circuit in there. English, easy to get wrong, the older I get....

Funny, the video mentions the tubes can be bought in either style (single end or double end) but I did not see the double end on their website when I first looked.

But LED tubes usually operate at a lower power than the fluorescent tubes, and usually put out less light also.

I bought some 2400 lumen 4 foot tubes. Waaayyyyyy more light than the fluorescents I took out! I had to replace with 1800 lumens as the space was overlit. Saved them for my garage. The video Dave posted above shows the Keystone 3000 Lumen 4' tube! That will light a dark area!

 

[ActionDave]

I thought you meant the same tube could take L-N on one end, or L on one end and N on the other.

That's exactly what I mean

 

[ActionDave]

I remember the first generation replacements well. I sure I still have a bunch of non shunted replacement tombstones in the bottom of my van somewhere. Used to be about a twenty minute deal to upgrade an existing T8 fixture. With the new style once I have my ladder set up and all my materials in place I can do three fixtures in one room in less than five minutes.

 

[LarryFine]

I remember when T8s came out, and converting existing fixtures with new ballasts. I never understood the difficulty some people had with rewiring the existing tombstones. I helped a friend do one over the phone, and could almost feel his "Aha!" moment when it clicked in his mind how to use the colors to wire in the new ballast.

 

[Russs57]

I have no doubt that it is cheaper and easier to do a retrofit.

As someone who has to live with the end result for its operating lifetime; I have no doubt a new fixture with a driver designed from the get go to perform with LED's is the better choice. Just buy a quality name brand that will be supported down the line.

First costs aren't the only costs that should be factored in.

 

[zimzam65]

I remember when T8s came out, and converting existing fixtures with new ballasts. I never understood the difficulty some people had with rewiring the existing tombstones. I helped a friend do one over the phone, and could almost feel his "Aha!" moment when it clicked in his mind how to use the colors to wire in the new ballast.

If you get the Dual ended Led bulbs and a bunch of Wego 5 Lever connectors you just cut the ballast wires and attach it direct to the incoming line and install the bulbs and you are done. very quick and easy. This uses the existing tombstone ends and fixture and unless you have an emergency light it is pretty straight forward for an electrician.

The quality of the bulb and the color do make a big difference. If you like the color a bit yellow use 3500K if you like it more blue use 5000k and if you want it clean white use 6500k. For computer users the 6500k work best and use fewer bulbs in the fixture.
I have done a lot of these.

 

[readydave8]

I remember when T8s came out, and converting existing fixtures with new ballasts. I never understood the difficulty some people had with rewiring the existing tombstones. I helped a friend do one over the phone, and could almost feel his "Aha!" moment when it clicked in his mind how to use the colors to wire in the new ballast.

me too, there were some friends that never did get it, I'd keep telling them to ignore existing colors and connect as per diagram on ballast, a few that I wound up going over to do, and one that couldn't do it even when I'd already done 1st fixture to give him example to follow

 

[FionaZuppa]

My question is, with retrofitting do you lose any fixture listings?

 

[brantmacga]

My question is, with retrofitting do you lose any fixture listings?

Using listed lamps and tombstones, no, I don’t see how that would affect the listing.


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[FionaZuppa]

Using listed lamps and tombstones, no, I don’t see how that would affect the listing.

But a retrofit alters the original fixture, at least those where say a new type of ballast is installed to accommodate the LED bulbs?

 

[zimzam65]

Larry, in my (likely inaccurate) language, "replace" means remove the old fixture completely and install a new one, and "retrofit" means remove the bulb, leave the fixture (case, mounting hardware, internal wiring, etc.), and install an LED bulb.

The other question we have not asked is if the fixture is 4 ft troffers or if it is 4 x 8 ft. but it works out the same if you use the Dual ended Ballast bypass type of LED. If the fixture is Hi power 8ft type it makes it necessary to change the tombstones. so that makes it almost as cheap to change the fixture.

 

[brantmacga]

But a retrofit alters the original fixture, at least those where say a new type of ballast is installed to accommodate the LED bulbs?

You’re not modifying the enclosure though. If you changed to a different brand fluorescent ballast or lamp than what came in the fixture, that wouldn’t affect the listing.

You can buy new completely empty troffer enclosures and install whatever ballast/lamp you like.


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[steve66]

I bought some 2400 lumen 4 foot tubes. Waaayyyyyy more light than the fluorescents I took out! I had to replace with 1800 lumens as the space was overlit. Saved them for my garage. The video Dave posted above shows the Keystone 3000 Lumen 4' tube! That will light a dark area!

Even though that should still be less than the 2800 lumens or so that a T8 lamp would produce, it could also be possible to wind up with a space that's overlit too. Especially if they have gotten used to a mix of burned out lamps and old lamps that aren't putting out much light.