LED Vs. HID

[kwired]

Roadway lighting rarely uses anything greater than a 400W HPS lamp (200W local street and 310W highway is pretty typical). LED technology has just reached the point where we can replace the 310W HPS lamps with equivalent LED's. At this time, you won't find an equivalent LED to meet what's installed where you work.

Exactly, OP says he has 1000 watt lamps, and there is a good chance that since it is working area it is set up to have more light density than typical roadway lighting has, making LED's designed for roadway lighting impractical for the application.

 

[Strife]

. or the one that was done on one of the bridges in NYC (I think). I just thought it would be a good idea for my industrial area. I guess it hasn't caught up with that area yet.
Thanks for all the input.

You're comparing apples to oranges.
On a bridge you don't need bright so people can read their bibles, you need bright enough so people can see the structure ahead of them.
I'd bet anything that the FC on those bridges is much lower than they were before. And I don't have ANYTHING against it. They were probably too bright to begin with.
Same approach won't work with a task light.
I need to get much closer to a light to take a splinter out of my hand than I used to 10 years ago.

 

[Electric-Light]

Roadway lighting rarely uses anything greater than a 400W HPS lamp (200W local street and 310W highway is pretty typical). LED technology has just reached the point where we can replace the 310W HPS lamps with equivalent LED's. At this time, you won't find an equivalent LED to meet what's installed where you work.

Don't forget to include double arc tube HPS that effectively doubles useful life. The arc tubes are connected in parallel. The distinct nature of gas discharge tubes dictate which capsule will light,but never both at the same time.

Lumen maintenance tends to be better than LED lighting products as well.

http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-2220.pdf

LED lighting products shall not be evaluated at out-of-the-box LPW. They shall be evaluated using mean lumens just like every other technology.

 

[Electric-Light]

You're comparing apples to oranges.
On a bridge you don't need bright so people can read their bibles, you need bright enough so people can see the structure ahead of them.
I'd bet anything that the FC on those bridges is much lower than they were before. And I don't have ANYTHING against it. They were probably too bright to begin with.
Same approach won't work with a task light.
I need to get much closer to a light to take a splinter out of my hand than I used to 10 years ago.

The energy reduction can't be credited to LEDs or only partial, if any. If you replace a 100W bulb with 75W bulb, the power saving is not due to "75W light bulb technology" which is along the line of thought LED sales people like to claim credit for.

Some LED products are less efficient than what they're replacing. They still achieve energy saving, because the output is also lower. This saving can't be credited to LEDs. Same can be accomplished for far less cost by using a lower wattage lamp of the same technology.

According to this LRC report, the spectral sensitivity of eyes shift as people age. Supposedly human eye lenses yellow like plastic headlight lenses with age. I haven't got to that point yet... and I should enjoy myself as much as I can while still young, but... its something for design considerations.
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/lightHealth/AARP/pdf/AARPbook3.pdf

What I'm saying is that S ratio that LED marketeers often use may not be consistent across the entire population. Rich in blue light may not provide as high of S ratio for a 70 year old as it does for a 18 year old. These two ends represent the approximate top and bottom end of driving group and are an important consideration for road lighting.

 

[tyha]

We have done alot of work with in the last 2 years with LED fixtures and no manufactuer has an indoor fixture that has the amount of lumens as a 1K MH. We had a retrofit that was very similar about a year ago and replaced with Flourescent T5HO High Bays. They were eight lamp fixtures with a reflective back. it cut there utility bill by more than half and didn't loose a single lumen

 

[kwired]

We have done alot of work with in the last 2 years with LED fixtures and no manufactuer has an indoor fixture that has the amount of lumens as a 1K MH. We had a retrofit that was very similar about a year ago and replaced with Flourescent T5HO High Bays. They were eight lamp fixtures with a reflective back. it cut there utility bill by more than half and didn't loose a single lumen

Sounds great if it saves energy (and it probably does). Who makes 8 lamp T5HO luminaires designed for outdoors is the question the OP would be interested in.

 

[weressl]

The energy efficiency is true, The development of LED technology has not evolved to the point where there is good replacement for direct interchange of a 1000 watt HID. It would require complete redesigning of lighting system you have and would probably take more space than your current 1000 watt HID's that are likely in groups on a minimal amount of towers.

You have to remember that individual LED's do not produce a lot of light - for higher light levels they just put multiple LED's in a single packaged unit. Put too many in a single unit then you have heat management problems and shortened life of components.

If you feel light levels are low consider how old your HID lamps are. I'm guessing you are talking about having metal halides - they do have an decrease in light output as they age with use. If light level has diminished enough, just replacing lamps can make it seem like you put in an entirely new lighting system.

http://dl.ledtronics.com/pdf/SLL004P-9X60W-XPW-005.pdf
http://www.lightingatlanta.org/led parking lot /led street light retrofit

When evaluating keep in mind that the highly directional nature of LED wins over MH where more than 3/4 of the delivered lumens need to be reflected - at a loss - to be useful fc. in the case of MH a LOT depends on the actual fixture of how much actual illumination can be delivered.

In our area I've noticed a lot of highway entry/exit replacements, but not the 150' high masts, yet.

 

[Strife]

The energy reduction can't be credited to LEDs or only partial, if any. If you replace a 100W bulb with 75W bulb, the power saving is not due to "75W light bulb technology" which is along the line of thought LED sales people like to claim credit for.

They're already doing that.
You never noticed that all incandescent lamps are rated at 130V(IE 100W at 130V) ???? So guess what, being a resistive load at 120V(or even 116-117 when at peak), it's really only a 90W bulb.
Which is a huge load of BC, but they have been doing in for least 10 years with incandescent.

 

[kwired]

They're already doing that.
You never noticed that all incandescent lamps are rated at 130V(IE 100W at 130V) ???? So guess what, being a resistive load at 120V(or even 116-117 when at peak), it's really only a 90W bulb.
Which is a huge load of BC, but they have been doing in for least 10 years with incandescent.

You can get 130 volt rated lamps. You will have extended life from them, and you will also have less light output and energy use then the rating if only applying 120 volts to them. I would not say that all incandescant lams are rated 130 volts. Most I see are not. They are usually 120 or 125 volt rated, sometimes 115.

 

[Electric-Light]

They're already doing that.
You never noticed that all incandescent lamps are rated at 130V(IE 100W at 130V) ???? So guess what, being a resistive load at 120V(or even 116-117 when at peak), it's really only a 90W bulb.
Which is a huge load of BC, but they have been doing in for least 10 years with incandescent.

Those are there for another reason.

If you have a farm of 1,000 bulbs that are rated at 1,000 hours 120.0v, half of them will survive after 1,000 hrs.
Bump the voltage up to 126.0v, half of them will be dead after about 500 hours
Bump it to 132v and half will be dead in about 250 hours.

130v lamps provide reasonable life when line voltage is chronically high. PoCo won't do anything about 125v line voltage.

 

[Todd Toth]

What about induction lamps? As far as longevity they seem superior to LED's.