LED Vs. HID

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Rock Crusher

Member
Location
Ne. USA
The company I work for has 21 1000W HID lights, on 12 2-pole 15A breakers. I have been reading alot about LEDs and want to try and sell this idea to them. I work nights and more lighting would be nice, but they say they can't fit anymore with their current set up.
Thank you.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The company I work for has 21 1000W HID lights, on 12 2-pole 15A breakers. I have been reading alot about LEDs and want to try and sell this idea to them. I work nights and more lighting would be nice, but they say they can't fit anymore with their current set up.
Thank you.
Is this indoor or outdoor lighting? T5 high bay is something to consider if indoors. I don't know what is available for LED. Especially in an effective outdoor light that would replace 1000 watt HID's. I personally don't think they have the color down yet if white light is what is desired. If you want colored lights they are great.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
The company I work for has 21 1000W HID lights, on 12 2-pole 15A breakers. I have been reading alot about LEDs and want to try and sell this idea to them. I work nights and more lighting would be nice, but they say they can't fit anymore with their current set up.
Thank you.
You're not giving us enough info. Why do you think LEDs is the way to go when the current setup won't permit more fixtures?
If the goal is to waste money and create need for a project that isn't really needed, how about a compost bio-gas system to produce methane from cow dung and run gas lights off of that?

Have you considered adding controls so that lights are put into segment, then installing additional lights near where its needed so you have more lights where its needed while being able to shut off where it isn't?
 

Rock Crusher

Member
Location
Ne. USA
I've been reading that the new LEDs are more energy efficient, hence more on a circuit. I didn't know the details of how LEDs work, that's why I posted it here.

If the goal is to waste money and create need for a project that isn't really needed, how about a compost bio-gas system to produce methane from cow dung and run gas lights off of that?
Was hoping for a good response without the hint of sarcasm and demeaning tone.

Have you considered adding controls so that lights are put into segment, then installing additional lights near where its needed so you have more lights where its needed while being able to shut off where it isn't?
Turning off some is not an option. I work at night and more light is needed. They over-extended themselves with all the power they use as it is. I was trying to find a way to use the same, or less, amount of power and get more light. I thought LEDs, or something equivilant, might work.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Providing low enough general illumination and high enough task illumination may reduce the total power consumption in any type of lighting.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've been reading that the new LEDs are more energy efficient, hence more on a circuit. I didn't know the details of how LEDs work, that's why I posted it here.



Was hoping for a good response without the hint of sarcasm and demeaning tone.



Turning off some is not an option. I work at night and more light is needed. They over-extended themselves with all the power they use as it is. I was trying to find a way to use the same, or less, amount of power and get more light. I thought LEDs, or something equivilant, might work.
The energy efficiency is true, The development of LED technology has not evolved to the point where there is good replacement for direct interchange of a 1000 watt HID. It would require complete redesigning of lighting system you have and would probably take more space than your current 1000 watt HID's that are likely in groups on a minimal amount of towers.

You have to remember that individual LED's do not produce a lot of light - for higher light levels they just put multiple LED's in a single packaged unit. Put too many in a single unit then you have heat management problems and shortened life of components.

If you feel light levels are low consider how old your HID lamps are. I'm guessing you are talking about having metal halides - they do have an decrease in light output as they age with use. If light level has diminished enough, just replacing lamps can make it seem like you put in an entirely new lighting system.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
You don't provide enough information to see if this is even remotely possible.

There is nothing "wrong" with LEDs. I just have issues with the applications some con artists are suggesting.
 

Rock Crusher

Member
Location
Ne. USA
That is the answer I was looking for kwired, sorta. I was hoping for something more along the lines of what I've been reading about, but atleast I now know more of the facts from people in the field.
Some of these aricles have been touting how great LEDs are, like the retrofit that was done in Washington D.C. or the one that was done on one of the bridges in NYC (I think). I just thought it would be a good idea for my industrial area. I guess it hasn't caught up with that area yet.
Thanks for all the input.:)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That is the answer I was looking for kwired, sorta. I was hoping for something more along the lines of what I've been reading about, but atleast I now know more of the facts from people in the field.
Some of these aricles have been touting how great LEDs are, like the retrofit that was done in Washington D.C. or the one that was done on one of the bridges in NYC (I think). I just thought it would be a good idea for my industrial area. I guess it hasn't caught up with that area yet.
Thanks for all the input.:)
The problem with those projects you mention is without government assistance and the whole green movement they would not have happened. For a private organization to do such a project without any outside funding just doesn't happen because the reality is the cost is greater than the savings on some of these green projects. Doesn't mean that we don't still need to do reasearch and improvements or install some of these green items on new construction, but to retrofit existing is not always worth it.

But at same time it gave some electricians work:happyyes:
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
The problem with those projects you mention is without government assistance and the whole green movement they would not have happened. For a private organization to do such a project without any outside funding just doesn't happen because the reality is the cost is greater than the savings on some of these green projects. Doesn't mean that we don't still need to do reasearch and improvements or install some of these green items on new construction, but to retrofit existing is not always worth it.

But at same time it gave some electricians work:happyyes:
I'm not going t buya hybrid out of pocket, but if the gubbermint was going to trade my beater for a Prius, I wouldn't refuse it.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
If you want to replace 1,000 watters I wouldn't go LED. You have a lot of heat issues. Metrolight makes reduced wattage electronic HID. I've heard several customers swear by it. It's twice as efficient as typical probe start Metal Halide.

See here: http://www.northcoastelectric.com/services-solutions/energy-solutions/
In the 250W range, electronically ballasted ceramic capsule HIDs can approach twice the mean efficacy of probe start.

1kW lamps are the marine diesel of the HID lamps. You can not touch them. They just can't be scaled down and get the same efficacy. I say this because no engine we have today can match the efficiency of those several hundred liter slow diesels making tens of thousands of hp, but they can't be scaled down to car sized engines with comparable efficiency.

lumens per watt:

120 new/96 mean for pulse-start MH
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/mh007.pdf

131 new/118 mean for HPS
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-2220.pdf

Also add that HIDs are more or less impervious to ambient temperature differences in the range we can reasonably expect in general lighting applications seeing that the arc tube runs hot enough to melt through ordinary glass.
 
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TNBaer

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
In the 250W range, electronically ballasted ceramic capsule HIDs can approach twice the mean efficacy of probe start.

1kW lamps are the marine diesel of the HID lamps. You can not touch them. They just can't be scaled down and get the same efficacy. I say this because no engine we have today can match the efficiency of those several hundred liter slow diesels making tens of thousands of hp, but they can't be scaled down to car sized engines with comparable efficiency.

lumens per watt:

120 new/96 mean for pulse-start MH
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/mh007.pdf

131 new/118 mean for HPS
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-2220.pdf

Also add that HIDs are more or less impervious to ambient temperature differences in the range we can reasonably expect in general lighting applications seeing that the arc tube runs hot enough to melt through ordinary glass.
Agreed. I think what companies like Metrolight have done is found a way to decrease the lumen depreciation curve. 1,000 Watt Metal Halide curves at over 35% and I believe that it may in fact be higher if the system is operating incorrectly. From what I understand they have increased efficiency, cut lumen depreciation, uniformed color, and increased CRI. When they replace Mean Lumens with Initial Lumens a 450 Watt lamp competes with the 1,000 watter and loses minimal light while upping the quality of that light. It's not that they achieved 200 LPW or some other ridiculous figure, they've just found a way to make Metal Halide more stable.
 
You don't provide enough information to see if this is even remotely possible. There is nothing "wrong" with LEDs. I just have issues with the applications some con artists are suggesting.
I would suggest contacting a fixture company like Sylvania, GE, Phillips, I believe they would come to the location and evaluate what you have and give a recomendation. I have seen where they are using LEDs on interstate roads, they have to be pretty good to do that.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Agreed. I think what companies like Metrolight have done is found a way to decrease the lumen depreciation curve. 1,000 Watt Metal Halide curves at over 35% and I believe that it may in fact be higher if the system is operating incorrectly. From what I understand they have increased efficiency, cut lumen depreciation, uniformed color, and increased CRI. When they replace Mean Lumens with Initial Lumens a 450 Watt lamp competes with the 1,000 watter and loses minimal light while upping the quality of that light. It's not that they achieved 200 LPW or some other ridiculous figure, they've just found a way to make Metal Halide more stable.
Lookup GE UltraMAX HID. They're electronic ballasts for HIDs. GE tells you the same thing about reduced lamp decay. It doesn't really matter though, because they still can't touch 1kW HIDs.

The Philips ceramic arc tube drop ins offer >100+ lm/W in their clear 330W version. The lumen maintenance is better than 400W probe start which is how it can approximate mean lumen of 400W probe start. These lamps work in both probe start and pulse start, so if you have probe start, these work. These lamps are expensive, but you just screw them into an existing fixture.

The 830W version is actually less efficacious. It does offer CRI of 92, but standard PULSE START 1kW lamp offers superior efficacy.
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4bt/3/332903/energy_advantage_cdm_allstart_332903_ffs_aen.pdf

A brand new 400W MH can be pretty close to a 1000W probe start that's almost about to burn out.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I would suggest contacting a fixture company like Sylvania, GE, Phillips, I believe they would come to the location and evaluate what you have and give a recomendation. I have seen where they are using LEDs on interstate roads, they have to be pretty good to do that.
Not saying you are wrong but roadway lighting is not exactly the same as lighting for areas where working tasks are to be performed. Lower lighting levels for roadway lighting are generally acceptable. Parking area lighting likely has higher desired lighting levels than open roads where pedestrians and slow moving traffic are not ordinarily encountered.
 

Muzikp

Member
Location
California
Not saying you are wrong but roadway lighting is not exactly the same as lighting for areas where working tasks are to be performed. Lower lighting levels for roadway lighting are generally acceptable. Parking area lighting likely has higher desired lighting levels than open roads where pedestrians and slow moving traffic are not ordinarily encountered.
Roadway lighting rarely uses anything greater than a 400W HPS lamp (200W local street and 310W highway is pretty typical). LED technology has just reached the point where we can replace the 310W HPS lamps with equivalent LED's. At this time, you won't find an equivalent LED to meet what's installed where you work.
 
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