Lets have some fun.

[iwire]

Re: Lets have some fun.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Someone could easily plead ignorance based on encouragement from the manufacturer.

LOL.

Good luck with that.

FWIW the fines for a willful violation (no fatality) start at $5000 and max out at $70,000 per violation.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Lets have some fun.

At the risk of looking totally stupid (which is a risk I take knowingly), I can honestly state that before Mr. Quasi-OHSA dude came along to correct us, everyone I know used the cardboard cut-out as a panel cover until trim.

We never considered it a hazard.

We never considered it a violation of OSHA regs, and it never occurred to us that was violating the NEC. Inspections passed, panels were energized, and no one was the wiser (or at least admitted it).

This is analogous to a concrete slab being a wet location. Until someone brings corrects it, most people will install NM in conduit in a slab. After knowledge is aquired, it is dispersed, inspectors can enforce it, and electricians can practice it.

The NEC itself is huge enough. Add OSHA into the mix and there's a world of information out there that we can only assimilate one piece at a time.

This is just another example.

[ January 29, 2006, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Lets have some fun.

George I again agree with you and understand that many are in the same predicament, I was too.

But each company is required to provide training about the rules, it goes without saying this is not always happening.

It was quite a shock to me when I first started taking safety classes. Then I went on to get my 40 hour OSHA card and was further surprised.

Now many projects we do will only allow workers on site that have had at least a 10 hour OSHA class.

In December we started getting safety training On-line, each month everyone has about 3 hours of training to do with tests for each topic.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Lets have some fun.

It seems from my perspective that OSHA cannot be appeased anyway. If they want a pound of flesh, they'll get it.

It's a defeatist attitude brought on by ignorance of OSHA regs. Every time I turn around I hear something else I couldn't guess at, but am doing wrong.

I suppose 10 hours of OSHA classes might peel some of that attitude back a bit.

 

[peter d]

Re: Lets have some fun.

I'm still waiting for the fun to start.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Lets have some fun.

Safety is a matter of assumed risk. Everything we do comes with some level of risk whether it be walking across our living room floor or working with live power. The question is, how much risk are we willing to expose ourselves to? This seems to vary depending on the task at hand.

Probably the most dangerous thing we do is drive our car at speeds in excess of 10 miles per hour. The farther we exceed that speed, the greater the risk for injury in the event of a collision yet we don't give it much thought, which also probably contributes to the risk.

As a society we have decided to accept certain risk levels. In our automobiles we attempt to design them with certain safety guidelines to minimize the risk. With electrical safety we do likewise and add protective covers, GFCI, etc. In either case, the designs can be defeated by the end-user thereby increasing the risk to themselves and others. About the only way to eliminate the risk completely is to eliminate the source. That is, outlaw the use of electricity or the automobile.

It's our choice.

Bob

 

[charlie b]

Re: Lets have some fun.

Originally posted by jimwalker: "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." So if this receptacle is not for taking current then why is it even there.

My point is that the receptacle is not taking current from a point on the wiring system. The fan is the device that is taking current from the wiring system. The "so called receptacle," or more accurately anything plugged into it, is taking current from the fan. That means that the "so called receptacle" is not "at the outlet." That means that that "so called receptacle" is not a "receptacle," by the NEC definition of "receptacle."