Leviton Thermal Magnetic vs Hydraulic Magnetic Circuit Breakers

[hbiss]

Leviton panels bring one word to mind with me, Trilliant, are they going to be like SQ D Trilliant & become extinct making breakers scarce & expensive?

SQ D Trilliant was what I was thinking of. Had a gray plastic cabinet and panel. Other than that, my opinion is the same as @norcal on Leviton panels. If you want techie toys, hope the replacement breakers are available 5 years from now.

-Hal

 

[Jraef]

I don't think you have much to worry about:

SUMMARY Hydraulic magnetic circuit breakers are best used in harsh environments where temperatures can vary widely.

15 degrees is not wide and it would take a long time for your basement to change that much.

The difference in cost may not be much, but how about availability?

Yeah, the only place I have seen people regularly use hydraulic breakers is in the Alaska fishing vessel industry. Wide temperature swings in their equipment use. (I built some gear that ended up on boats that are on the Deadliest Catch TV show).

 

[__dan]

Actually they are pitching these Hydraulic breakers for better accuracy in residential temperature applications (see Video). No, I'm not putting it in my garage. But if the house is well insulated, the cellar will be as cold as some garages (they even use a garage as an example in the Video). I was just giving examples of residential applications that vary widely in temperature. Because the Thermal breakers are designed to trip at spec at a specific Ambient temperature with a steep re-rating temperature curve. Residential applications can range from 0F-100F easy. And that can shift the trip point a lot.

No, I don't plan on load testing them jump to 1:41

I like the glass door but don't want to pay extra for it. That was all I liked.

The wifi tie in, if it is a non standard proprietary API, that's a drawback. Would stay away for that reason only. If it has an open and free API, that would be interesting. My guess it that is closed and they sell subscriptions to it.

The electrician will check his phone to diagnose why your breaker tripped, never, false statement / advertising.

Maybe you would get into a monthly cloud subscription which is where all those business models are heading, then call the cloud call center for your breaker trips, who answers with an person sounding AI, who has no clue why your breaker tripped. The whole premise is some else's failed marketing ploy repeated again. Or, they fail to maintain it for free and it gets turned off, bricked, after x years.

The guy in the baseball cap looks exactly like the FTX guy who just blew up other people's billions last week, except no afro. Easily rolled into a new gig from there.

You could load test it in less time than posting, and it is time, and you're actually going to put load on it, but you want the results to come from your phone but not your hands and eyes. You do know how much data loss there is between the load and your phone, basically everything. The phone display is gibberish until your confirm the results with an independent instrument. Same for the trip curves. It is very improbable it will trip exactly on the curve even at the specified ambient.

We are looking for a much broader more generic result of, does it trip reliably and well, when it has to. Until then, the extra fluff is something to be ignored or disposed of.

 

[ramsy]

examples of residential applications that vary widely in temperature.

If ambients are similar between load center and building wiring then wire temperature corrections, described by 2017 Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) are coordinated with OCP.

The question is, can Leviton hydraulic OCP calibrate ambient trip curves to match wiring raceways with different ambients?

 

[mswlogo]

Yeah, the only place I have seen people regularly use hydraulic breakers is in the Alaska fishing vessel industry. Wide temperature swings in their equipment use. (I built some gear that ended up on boats that are on the Deadliest Catch TV show).

I don’t understand why folks keep bringing up wide temperature swings as being the only application for hydraulic.

If the ambient temp is consistently low (or high) (e.g. 50F) your Thermal breakers won’t trip when they should. Period. Is it a huge deal? no. If it cost nothing, and the Hydraulic are always dead on from -40F to 185F with no other draw back, why not use them? Is it safer to trip more accurately? I think so.

Leviton claims they are better breakers, they are targeting residential benefits. Does that mean they are right, no. But they sure did build an awesome panel.

When I first posted this I had assumed that different appliances would do better on Magnetic vs Thermal. Just as AFCI or GFCI don’t go on everything.

But the more I look into it, there is no negative for Hydraulic. But there is for Thermal. My application is far from extreme but enough that I think it’s significant.

The house is all electric and two EV cars.

I plan to get the clear glass door for it, even though it’s in the cellar

One way I like to verify how satisfied customers are with a “smart” device is to check the application reviews on App Store. Reviews are excellent. That’s actually pretty rare.

 

[mswlogo]

I like the glass door but don't want to pay extra for it. That was all I liked.

The wifi tie in, if it is a non standard proprietary API, that's a drawback. Would stay away for that reason only. If it has an open and free API, that would be interesting. My guess it that is closed and they sell subscriptions to it.

The electrician will check his phone to diagnose why your breaker tripped, never, false statement / advertising.

Maybe you would get into a monthly cloud subscription which is where all those business models are heading, then call the cloud call center for your breaker trips, who answers with an person sounding AI, who has no clue why your breaker tripped. The whole premise is some else's failed marketing ploy repeated again. Or, they fail to maintain it for free and it gets turned off, bricked, after x years.

The guy in the baseball cap looks exactly like the FTX guy who just blew up other people's billions last week, except no afro. Easily rolled into a new gig from there.

You could load test it in less time than posting, and it is time, and you're actually going to put load on it, but you want the results to come from your phone but not your hands and eyes. You do know how much data loss there is between the load and your phone, basically everything. The phone display is gibberish until your confirm the results with an independent instrument. Same for the trip curves. It is very improbable it will trip exactly on the curve even at the specified ambient.

We are looking for a much broader more generic result of, does it trip reliably and well, when it has to. Until then, the extra fluff is something to be ignored or disposed of.

And how would I control the worst case ambient temp to load test? What is normal tolerance for Thermal vs Hydraulic? How do I test surge behavior? Testing with hair dyers at an arbitrary temp (right now) would be pointless. I could even use the EV car to set a precise load. But again, pointless.

I don’t know of any subscription fee. Probably proprietary. Don’t care as long as it works. Biggest issue with that is what happens 10 years from now. That’s a problem with all the smart stuff. If it does well I suspect they would have a migration path.

I have Sense monitor now and it was one of the best investments I’ve ever made. Never regretted have more info and control.

 

[ptonsparky]

The summary I quoted tells you where it is best suited. Nothing there says you can't or should not use them anywhere else.

 

[__dan]

You don't have any surge loads as you're already stated. The AC is vsd driven. It would be a good test though, one hair dryer for the steady state and then start a big table saw on the same circuit to see if it carries (it might start, but then trip when you try ripping some oak on it).

Point is you're running scared of something but have no real data to be afraid of yet. When you see the 20 breaker a carrying 40 or so with a hair dryer and the table saw ripping some plywood, then you would have some data that might worry you.

You can work the problem backwards. What is the result you want to achieve, where do you want the 20 to trip and after how long. The EV test is a great idea. But the EV probably knows when it's on the 20 cord and auto dials down below that because it knows someone will plug in without manually setting the draw to below the circuit rating. So again, a scenario that does not apply to your application.

But it's a great test. Let's say the EV self protect feature fails and it thinks it's on a 50 cord. You can make your own cheat cord that fools the EV, then connect to the 20 breaker. Dial the EV to 25 draw (the result you want it to achieve, you want to see if it trips or if you have something to complain about). Load the 20 to 25 and wait to see how long it takes to trip. Time + heating + more time + more heating = fire.

Which is why I said two hair dryers on the 20 plus time. They're not going to draw the 12.5 nameplate, probably 11 each, so 2 of them is 22, which is a great breaker calibration if that will trip it. If it trips fast, that's bad. A nuisance trip. But after an hour you would want it to shut itself off. That's really the only thing you need the breaker to do and if it cannot do that, all the extra fluff is not going to be worth the fire hazard.

 

[__dan]

If you still think the breaker trips accurately only at 105 F, you're essentially in the position of saying the Leviton trip curves are wrong for the product. Which is where your post started. Your questions are really for the Leviton applications rep who does know the answers you seek.

Other than that you can get some data of your own with some load testing, using whatever you happen to have lying around. Plug it all in and run it, see where it trips (or where it keeps running). Nuisance tripping at short term overloads is not a feature of a breaker, that's bad. It should carry LRA for one second or so, which would be 120 on a 20 breaker.

But calibration at long term running overloads would be something most breakers are probably not very good at, regardless of what the trip curves say. It has to be tested.

 

[mswlogo]

You don't have any surge loads as you're already stated. The AC is vsd driven. It would be a good test though, one hair dryer for the steady state and then start a big table saw on the same circuit to see if it carries (it might start, but then trip when you try ripping some oak on it).

Point is you're running scared of something but have no real data to be afraid of yet. When you see the 20 breaker a carrying 40 or so with a hair dryer and the table saw ripping some plywood, then you would have some data that might worry you.

You can work the problem backwards. What is the result you want to achieve, where do you want the 20 to trip and after how long. The EV test is a great idea. But the EV probably knows when it's on the 20 cord and auto dials down below that because it knows someone will plug in without manually setting the draw to below the circuit rating. So again, a scenario that does not apply to your application.

But it's a great test. Let's say the EV self protect feature fails and it thinks it's on a 50 cord. You can make your own cheat cord that fools the EV, then connect to the 20 breaker. Dial the EV to 25 draw (the result you want it to achieve, you want to see if it trips or if you have something to complain about). Load the 20 to 25 and wait to see how long it takes to trip. Time + heating + more time + more heating = fire.

Which is why I said two hair dryers on the 20 plus time. They're not going to draw the 12.5 nameplate, probably 11 each, so 2 of them is 22, which is a great breaker calibration if that will trip it. If it trips fast, that's bad. A nuisance trip. But after an hour you would want it to shut itself off. That's really the only thing you need the breaker to do and if it cannot do that, all the extra fluff is not going to be worth the fire hazard.

Two hair dryers is a joke.

I can pop in a lower breaker (don’t even have to rewire) then dial the car down and bring it up to any % over breaker (but remain below wiring etc) with no risk. But again, I’m not about to verify what Leviton claims. I’ll take their word for it.

Sorry, but This discussion has been little help. Most of it containing false information of how inferior the panel is with absolutely zero experience, evidence or knowledge of it.

Im convinced Hydraulic is superior in every way. With little cost difference, it’s a no brainer.

Bet you Hydraulic is in NEC 2030. I put AFCI in long before it was code. I put GFCI on EV charging long before it was code. All common sense. Hydraulic is common sense.

One thing that this thread convinced me of. Talking to the electrician would be a useless endeavor. Thanks for saving me time going down that road.

I won’t even get into some other electrical issues I’m dealing with. Too old school mentally here.

 

[jim dungar]

Im convinced Hydraulic is superior in every way.

Hydraulic and dual magnetic type breaker element concepts are not new concepts. They are probably close to 100 years old.

I remember selling Carling brand hydraulic breakers some 40 years ago.

In my opinion, hydraulic breakers for residential panels are a solution looking for a problem.

 

[hbiss]

Too old school mentally here.

That's because we've been around the block a few times...

-Hal

 

[Jraef]

Although often touted as an “advantage”, having no cool-down period before resetting is something I’ve never liked about them.
If you don’t know, hydraulic breakers can be immediately reset, which for an industrial user who (in theory) understands the risk of that to the equipment, is probably fine. But to an average homeowner I’m not OK with it. Trip / reset, trip /reset, trip /reset, trip /reset, trip /reset, fire…

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It is my opinion that the code needs to address the effect of temperature on the trip time. I tried to add an Informational Note to 230.85 calling attention to this issue because a thermal magnetic breaker installed outside in my area will have a trip at least 25% higher than the breaker rating for over 5 months of the year. The panel's response was that the installer needs to read and understand the details found in the time trip curves. Many installing electricians have no idea of what a time trip curve even is.

 

[Jraef]

I’m sure Leviton must have compensated for this, but in the old Heinemann and Carling hydraulic breakers I used to use on shipboard, they were designed only for vertical mounting orientation. If you wanted horizontal, like most residential panels are in order to fit between studs, then the hydraulic breakers had to be ordered that way since it took special calibration, and then it mad a difference which side was up, so left side breakers were not interchangeable with right side breakers. We just always used them in the upright orientation because when you were in the middle of the Bering Sea and a breaker failed, everything needed to be a universal donor if necessary. Hopefully Leviton has addressed that issue, otherwise Joe Handyman will be installing the wrong version and the trip characteristics will be way off.

 

[mswlogo]

Hydraulic and dual magnetic type breaker element concepts are not new concepts. They are probably close to 100 years old.

I remember selling Carling brand hydraulic breakers some 40 years ago.

In my opinion, hydraulic breakers for residential panels are a solution looking for a problem.

Lots of things have moved from commercial applications to residential. Sounds like they were superior in commercial applications for years. And now, perhaps, Hydraulic are an improvement for residential applications.

 

[__dan]

Sorry, but This discussion has been little help. Most of it containing false information of how inferior the panel is with absolutely zero experience, evidence or knowledge of it.

It's so funny the guy in the baseball cap touting the hyd trip looks exactly like the FTX chief last week, except trimmed the afro down, and has you sold on his new product. The electricians here want to see it trip a few times, being the next new thing, but then too many trips that's bad also.

Yes I agree with you on the little or no help. At least probably saved your regular EC some of the chasing the Leviton rep around the table a few times. I believe I did say early on that's who to take it to.

 

[mswlogo]

It's so funny the guy in the baseball cap touting the hyd trip looks exactly like the FTX chief last week, except trimmed the afro down, and has you sold on his new product. The electricians here want to see it trip a few times, being the next new thing, but then too many trips that's bad also.

Yes I agree with you on the little or no help. At least probably saved your regular EC some of the chasing the Leviton rep around the table a few times. I believe I did say early on that's who to take it to.

What sold me was seeing one first hand on display a few years back. I know how to judge quality. It was shortly after I just replace my panel with a Murray.

The Hydraulic breakers are icing on the cake.

I pointed out the Video to just show that Leviton does pitch Hydraulic breakers as a benefit to residential applications. Not saying they are right or wrong. But they make a convincing argument.

Since you seem to comment more on how the guy looks is a huge signal that I’m chatting with the wrong person.

Stop over thinking my thoughts.

 

[Jraef]

At Home Depot, a 20A 1 pole Hydraulic trip breaker, not AFCI or anything, is $10.11, the same in T-M is $6.48. The combo AFCI/GFCI is $82 vs $52.

Hardly the “same price”…

 

[mswlogo]

I’m sure Leviton must have compensated for this, but in the old Heinemann and Carling hydraulic breakers I used to use on shipboard, they were designed only for vertical mounting orientation. If you wanted horizontal, like most residential panels are in order to fit between studs, then the hydraulic breakers had to be ordered that way since it took special calibration, and then it mad a difference which side was up, so left side breakers were not interchangeable with right side breakers. We just always used them in the upright orientation because when you were in the middle of the Bering Sea and a breaker failed, everything needed to be a universal donor if necessary. Hopefully Leviton has addressed that issue, otherwise Joe Handyman will be installing the wrong version and the trip characteristics will be way off.

I’m sure they have. There is no differentiation of left vs right breakers.