Leviton Thermal Magnetic vs Hydraulic Magnetic Circuit Breakers

[jim dungar]

It's not perceived. It's real. The recall is perceived you think? The pictures I posted of the poorly constructed QO panel are perceived?

The longevity of a design doesn't necesarrily speak to it's practicality or usefulness. It can have a lot to do with the expense of changing that design. Tooling of new equipment is expensive, as is training for it. We have a lot of crappy stuff in this world simply because it's expensive or difficult to change. Take the Imperial VS metric system for example. The Metric system is much better, but changing it was too difficult for the old crotchety types who couldn't comprehend that water freezing at 0 made more sense than 32.

Human stubborness and the unwillingness to accept change is horrible for the human race.

How much of the damage in your posted pictures may be do to mishandling after fabrication versus inherent manufacturing flaws

Typical problems with the imperial system involve the use of fractions rather than decimals as well as the use of too many units in a single measurement. There really isn't a single best answer, the arguements for and against Imperial units have been made for at least 250 years.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong or inherently unwilling to change.

 

[tthh]

First, i admit I didn't read every post.

I am an engineer, and I do overthink a lot of stuff. Sometimes that's good and sometimes not.

I generally use Leviton for all things receptacles and switches and Ethernet.

Several thoughts for the OP...
- How long is Leviton gonna be in the panel business? When you go to expand or replace something in 10 years, will you be able to get the part?
- The whole breaker thing is way over blown. For example, worrying about the trip point on 15A and 20A circuits is nuts especially since these are de-rated to begin with. The ampacity of #14, 60 degree wire is 20A, but the NEC limits its use to 15A.

 

[brantmacga]

I think Sense is great. I have two of them. But it can’t do a lot of stuff this can and this is much more precise. And Sense doesn’t do well with variable loads or constant loads.

It might see one cycle or two of a dishwasher but not the whole thing. It never saw my pool because it’s variable speed and it runs 24/7 when in season. It needs to see things cycle at stable levels to detect it. It never saw my Electric car (all 4), well it did a little, when I opened the door the car would use some fixed load that it did detect but it never detected charging (which varies). Never saw my HVAC with variable speed blower and variable speed Compressor.

Best thing Sense did was total usage and very good at calculating your “always on”. The always on stuff is often what really chews up watts. It helped me eliminate a bunch of those and saved me a ton.

It would never work with my GeoThermal HVAC, constant pressure well pump or new variable speed compressor fridge and more. The loads are too complex to isolate.

So far its found all of my major appliances and HVAC. It found my single-speed pool pump & well pump, but it did not find my booster pump.

On my dishwasher it found the pump & heating element as separate appliances, and on my washing machine it found the drum motor and water pump as separate appliances, but I was able to combine them in the app. Another oddity is that it found my condenser blower fan and compressor as separate appliances, but again I was able to combine them.

I bought a new Trane variable speed AHU and multi-stage condenser like 3/mo ago but I'm still waiting on HVAC contractor to get here and install it. I guess I'll find out then if it will work for that.

About a year ago I asked my two major suppliers to quote the Leviton loadcenter stuff for me out of curiosity, and both called back and said Leviton told them they were not shipping to the southeast, so that concerns me. If its still here in 5/yrs I'd consider offering it.

 

[mswlogo]

Pretty close to fully setup. I put GF, AF and Smart everywhere I possibly could. Lots of trial and error .

Leviton has been great in helping out on a few issues.

Software has had a few rough edges. It often takes a few scans or a reboot of the hub to get a new breaker to take. I think this often happened when the new breaker needed new firmware and it doesn’t communicate this very well.

You can see I have my Sense too. Sense is good for sorting out your “Always On” which is often your largest consumer. And real-time total consumption is good. Measuring actual usage and getting all devices is a total crap shoot and not reliable. I’ve had 2 Senses in 3 houses for 3-4 years now. Good bang for the buck, but doesn’t hold a candle to what this can do.

Leviton is VERY expensive, no argument there. Probably added $1500-2000.00. Don’t care, worth every penny. The triggers it has, are priceless. And it already caught that I forgot to turn the Radon Fan circuit back on after some fiddling.

I bet Sense never even finds for example, my fridge because it has a variable speed DC compressor. Same goes for the Well, and Geo Thermal compressor. Sense can’t figure out many high efficiency devices with very complex load signatures. It probably can’t even find a dimmable bulb.

Sense has found 11 devices in 2 months. Out of probably a 100. Of those 2 are dupes of the same device at different loads (and not all the loads). And 3-4 are only a fragment of that device. Like it found one EV’s, but it hasn’t actually figured out when it’s charging. (hasn’t in 3 years). Just when door is open HVAC turns on and it senses that. But you can set triggers on individual appliances (if it finds it), where Leviton only does circuits. Sense can never breakout anything that’s always on, like my Radon Fan. But the Leviton can.

You can use Sense dedicated on a couple circuits with 2 more taps.

One thing Leviton doesn’t have is a Smart Main breaker. So Sense is good for that too.

That’s why I still have my Sense too. Almost apples and oranges.

The chart below is dead accurate. Sense will NEVER approach that, ever.

Garage = Chevy Volt
Furnace = Water Furnace (as in Geo Thermal Compressor)
Heater = Geo Thermal backup heat and the Blower. That’s all blower.
Radon Fan = Includes a regular fan in the cellar to circulate air temporarily, hope to shut that off soon.

I also have two Surge breakers in there near the bottom.

 

[stretch12]

The Leviton breakers, conventional,af,and dual function all look the same , the branch wiring terminates on the terminal strip next to the breakers and you stab on the appropriate circuit breaker.

 

[ptonsparky]

Pretty close to fully setup. I put GF, AF and Smart everywhere I possibly could. Lots of trial and error .

Leviton has been great in helping out on a few issues.

Software has had a few rough edges. It often takes a few scans or a reboot of the hub to get a new breaker to take. I think this often happened when the new breaker needed new firmware and it doesn’t communicate this very well.

You can see I have my Sense too. Sense is good for sorting out your “Always On” which is often your largest consumer. And real-time total consumption is good. Measuring actual usage and getting all devices is a total crap shoot and not reliable. I’ve had 2 Senses in 3 houses for 3-4 years now. Good bang for the buck, but doesn’t hold a candle to what this can do.

Leviton is VERY expensive, no argument there. Probably added $1500-2000.00. Don’t care, worth every penny. The triggers it has, are priceless. And it already caught that I forgot to turn the Radon Fan circuit back on after some fiddling.

I bet Sense never even finds for example, my fridge because it has a variable speed DC compressor. Same goes for the Well, and Geo Thermal compressor. Sense can’t figure out many high efficiency devices with very complex load signatures. It probably can’t even find a dimmable bulb.

Sense has found 11 devices in 2 months. Out of probably a 100. Of those 2 are dupes of the same device at different loads (and not all the loads). And 3-4 are only a fragment of that device. Like it found one EV’s, but it hasn’t actually figured out when it’s charging. (hasn’t in 3 years). Just when door is open HVAC turns on and it senses that. But you can set triggers on individual appliances (if it finds it), where Leviton only does circuits. Sense can never breakout anything that’s always on, like my Radon Fan. But the Leviton can.

You can use Sense dedicated on a couple circuits with 2 more taps.

One thing Leviton doesn’t have is a Smart Main breaker. So Sense is good for that too.

That’s why I still have my Sense too. Almost apples and oranges.

The chart below is dead accurate. Sense will NEVER approach that, ever.

Garage = Chevy Volt
Furnace = Water Furnace (as in Geo Thermal Compressor)
Heater = Geo Thermal backup heat and the Blower. That’s all blower.
Radon Fan = Includes a regular fan in the cellar to circulate air temporarily, hope to shut that off soon.

I also have two Surge breakers in there near the bottom.

Nice. Thanks for coming back.

 

[mswlogo]

The Leviton breakers, conventional,af,and dual function all look the same , the branch wiring terminates on the terminal strip next to the breakers and you stab on the appropriate circuit breaker.

I wish they had ground termination at each breaker too. That would really make the panel easier and tidier.

 

[VirutalElectrician]

Looks like a nice install. Not much expansion left though. I'm surprised your electrician didn't suggest a 66 space panel.

Leviton does make clamp on CTs like Sense has. You could use those, and they'd integrate right in with the rest of the breakers in the Leviton app.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083N3FW6B/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=A1FUQSM0R62GWI&psc=1

 

[brantmacga]

Looks like a nice install. Not much expansion left though. I'm surprised your electrician didn't suggest a 66 space panel.

Leviton does make clamp on CTs like Sense has. You could use those, and they'd integrate right in with the rest of the breakers in the Leviton app.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083N3FW6B/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=A1FUQSM0R62GWI&psc=1

It looks like that's only an option for 70A-125A breakers; I can't find an actual ID size on the CT's but it doesn't appear large enough for 2/0 (or 4/0 AL), so I'm not sure you can meter the entire service with it. It is a compelling product, but I can't find it in my heart to trust Leviton will support this thing in 25 years. At a cost of an additional $2k per OP, I might would opt for a SPAN panel since they use Homeline breakers, and offer actual load-shedding that allows for not only switching off but switching loads back on.

 

[mswlogo]

Looks like a nice install. Not much expansion left though. I'm surprised your electrician didn't suggest a 66 space panel.

Leviton does make clamp on CTs like Sense has. You could use those, and they'd integrate right in with the rest of the breakers in the Leviton app.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083N3FW6B/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=A1FUQSM0R62GWI&psc=1

Didn’t know a 66 slot existed. I think it should be ok. 4 slots are unused Surge Protectors. So 9 slots are free. But a lot of circuits are poorly lumped together. I might split some easy ones.

Breaker for backup Gen is in already.

Only thing planned thing left is Solar.

Yeah, that link for CT says 60A max. And it’s not a clip on either. What would those hook to, anyway?

 

[VirutalElectrician]

It looks like that's only an option for 70A-125A breakers; I can't find an actual ID size on the CT's but it doesn't appear large enough for 2/0 (or 4/0 AL), so I'm not sure you can meter the entire service with it. It is a compelling product, but I can't find it in my heart to trust Leviton will support this thing in 25 years. At a cost of an additional $2k per OP, I might would opt for a SPAN panel since they use Homeline breakers, and offer actual load-shedding that allows for not only switching off but switching loads back on.

I haven't dug into SPAN panels yet, I need to do that. But they look incredibly expensive. $3500-$4500 for the panel, plus breakers. Leviton panels and breakers are about the same cost as everyone elses, until you start buying smart breakers. But there you can do or not do smart breakers as needs and budget allows.

I assume they must have relays behind the Homeline breakers to do the dynamic load shedding.

I'm not sure I'd put 25 years of faith into anything at the moment. But at least Leviton has been around a long time and has a multitude of product lines to support it.

I already don't like Span's business model where I have to enter all my personal details so a sales droid can call me and sell me on their product. In this day and age if you can't have a website with pricing, and a buy it now, here's my CC info, I don't really want to deal with you.

 

[mswlogo]

I doubt I’ll get 25 years out of it. My guess is the hub will go out of date and they will release some sort of band aide bridge to something new. It has a lot of piece of mind for me right now.

 

[brantmacga]

I doubt I’ll get 25 years out of it. My guess is the hub will go out of date and they will release some sort of band aide bridge to something new. It has a lot of piece of mind for me right now.

Does the Leviton app allow for automatic load shedding when you add the solar? Or if it switches to gen power?

What other features are in there that you find interesting or helpful?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[brantmacga]

I haven't dug into SPAN panels yet….
I assume they must have relays behind the Homeline breakers to do the dynamic load shedding.

Yes. Relays and CT’s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[__dan]

I doubt I’ll get 25 years out of it. My guess is the hub will go out of date and they will release some sort of band aide bridge to something new. It has a lot of piece of mind for me right now.

That's the trouble exactly. If it uploaded to your own server or appliance you might have a chance of keeping it self sufficient. But typically these things, they all want to sell or service the software. Their business model usually is, rent software, sell data.

Typically these things upload to the cloud and then your phone connects to the cloud to get your data. That service is not cheap or free. The free part is only the teaser, the doorbuster price to get you in the door. Essentially you are beta testing during their development process. They are subsidizing users to get it working. But at some point the product matures and they want to make it profitable. Or they give up on it for the next bright idea.

You probably know software changes so fast, fastest of all. Five year old software is obsolete, it has all changed. If it were an open system, then multi vendors would support it and have taps into it, so you could expect some resiliency and competitiveness. But the typical business model for these things, they want to build *on* open source technology, but have their proprietary interface that they own and control, sell. Either charging for future support or it being bricked are both typical. If they wanted to open it to multi manufacturer open participation, that would be very interesting. But they all have the same idea, they want to own and sell the data, your data.

Funny they go through all the trouble of having metering hardware built into the breaker but it does not have an electronic trip. That would be the natural next evolution of the product. But having to compete with the existing thermal and hyd delated mag trips in that market would be difficult when you can buy a breaker for $5.

The Leviton brand will be around a long time, very good products. But the free software service they can close the door on that at any time. Many already have.

 

[mswlogo]

Does the Leviton app allow for automatic load shedding when you add the solar? Or if it switches to gen power?

What other features are in there that you find interesting or helpful?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Main features are kWh per circuit and notifications of under or over usage.

All it offers for generator is a manual interlock. Which is all I need.

Funny they go through all the trouble of having metering hardware built into the breaker but it does not have an electronic trip.

 

[__dan]

That display you're showing looks like it offers a 'remote manual off'. I was referring to an electronic auto 'off' (trip). One of the differences could be the 'graininess' of the data sampling. It's possible is does not read the metering data fast enough to function as a protective device.

The electronic remote manual 'off', without also having the remote manual 'on', it's hard to see the average user (using that). More likely even if they suddenly decided 'I have to turn that off now', would not remember or know their breaker does that.

Metering the Tesla charger would be a great feature. But I am guessing the tesla charger already does that itself. Fridge compressor wearing out and running all the time would be another common ubiquitous problem (nationwide).

But everyone with an old worn out fridge would be the last people to buy a metering breaker for it. They would be busy trying to buy another dozen eggs for it.

 

[mswlogo]

That display you're showing looks like it offers a 'remote manual off'. I was referring to an electronic auto 'off' (trip). One of the differences could be the 'graininess' of the data sampling. It's possible is does not read the metering data fast enough to function as a protective device.

The electronic remote manual 'off', without also having the remote manual 'on', it's hard to see the average user (using that). More likely even if they suddenly decided 'I have to turn that off now', would not remember or know their breaker does that.

Metering the Tesla charger would be a great feature. But I am guessing the tesla charger already does that itself. Fridge compressor wearing out and running all the time would be another common ubiquitous problem (nationwide).

But everyone with an old worn out fridge would be the last people to buy a metering breaker for it. They would be busy trying to buy another dozen eggs for it.

Tesla has terrible metering. Only measures what goes in the battery (from all sources). So charging elsewhere gets lumped in. And doesn’t include charging losses, battery heating or HVAC preheating (when plugged in). So you have no idea what it’s costing you at home.

Tesla doesn’t want you to know. Kind of like your electric bill.

I see what your getting at on data driven trip (for safety).

But it would be nice if some of the notification rules it could also turn it off.

I find the remote trip useful.

Actually can’t use the fridge always on as something bad. Because it always is on or can be on for very extended period. It’s just throttles up and down rather than on and off. Variable speed compressor. If it doesn’t use something over an extended period, something is wrong.

Never would have guessed the Volt was using more than the Tesla.

 

[VirutalElectrician]

That's the trouble exactly. If it uploaded to your own server or appliance you might have a chance of keeping it self sufficient. But typically these things, they all want to sell or service the software. Their business model usually is, rent software, sell data.

That's true in the commercial world. In residential, the software/cloud is usually free. They use it as an incentive to sell the physical product.

Typically these things upload to the cloud and then your phone connects to the cloud to get your data. That service is not cheap or free. The free part is only the teaser, the doorbuster price to get you in the door. Essentially you are beta testing during their development process. They are subsidizing users to get it working. But at some point the product matures and they want to make it profitable. Or they give up on it for the next bright idea.

There's really no other feasible way for this to work. Trying to get Joe Homeowner to setup port forwarding on their router is a non-starter. Then if someone breaks into that little appliance they sold you, now you have a public relations nightmare. Sending data to the cloud is the most customer friendly way to get this done.

Cloud services are not free, but they are extremly cheap. You can process and store a tremendous amout of data on a cloud system for not much money.

The shell game is, they need to keep selling product to support it. If the product fails in the market place, then all those who bought in get screwed when the shell game falls apart and the cloud service is switched off.

Funny they go through all the trouble of having metering hardware built into the breaker but it does not have an electronic trip. That would be the natural next evolution of the product. But having to compete with the existing thermal and hyd delated mag trips in that market would be difficult when you can buy a breaker for $5.

There is electronic trip on the Leviton breakers. I can push a button in the app, and it'll trip the breaker. There's just no electronic reset, which is disallowed by UL. That's why SPAN does it with relays after the breaker.

If you are so inclined, you could look into the Shelly's pro grade WiFi relays. They are DIN mountable WIFI relays with power monitoring. You would of course have to run your circuits into a home-rolled system after the panel, but the Shelley's relays have an open API that work with Home Assitant, so you'd be in control of everything, no cloud required.

Professional Series

www.shelly.cloud

 

[VirutalElectrician]

Yes. Relays and CT’s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I watched some YT videos on SPAN last night.

WOW.

Tremendous amout of marketing propaganda there. Almost half the videos where SPAN sponsered. Some of the videos even started out with "I originally made a video about SPAN, but SPAN wasn't happy with it, so they came out onsite to help me re-do the video..."

Their marketing machine is in high gear that's for sure. Tremendous amout of videos raving about the app and how cool it is.

I couldn't find a single Tear Down video of how the panel actually does what it does. There's a simple parts break down picture.

It looks like they have a relay and circuit board buried behind the circuit breaker bus. I'm guessing if you blow something on this board, you'd have to rip out all your breakers, disconnect all the wires in the panel just to access this board and replace it. How expensive is that going to be for a home owner ? How many days to rush ship me a new controller board? How many days to schedule an electrician to come on site and replace?
It looks like they've already gone through a couple generational design changes, and made the new panels smaller. Are the new controllers compatible with the old ones? How much longer will original installers be able to get the older control boards should their's blow?

Are the relays normally closed, so that if the controller board fails, the circuilt will at least continue to function?

Lots of what-ifs all their sponsered glory videos happily ignore.

One thing is for sure, Siemens and Square D deserve to be slapped for completely missing the boat on this stuff. But that's typical for old ancient companies with huge profit margins. It's difficult for them to see the future. But this is still new territory, there's still time for them to catch up. Original invovators like SPAN rarely end up being the market leaders in the long run.